Should local bands play for free? (2 Viewers)

[hugh]

So you know, in my 10 years in the Boston music scene I played maybe 10 free shows, compared to dozens and dozens and dozens of paid ones, some very well paid ones at that.

And, in my time in the UK all the gigs I played were payed.

Why is that? I mean ..... were these gigs always packed? How does it work?

 

[MilanPan!c]

Why is that? I mean ..... were these gigs always packed? How does it work?

Venues make tons on booze.

Tons.

A pint costs then prolly less than a quid and they sell it for five. Think of upstairs at Whelans. How many pints will they sell on a Friday night?? 200 pints? More?

So that's at least 800 quid. And they make another 2-300 quid on the door.

so that's a grand.

At least.

So three bands, the first two make 100 quid and the headliner make 150-200.

So that's not even half o what they made.

Give the sound guy 200, the door person is normal staff and paid for by the pub as is the bar guy.

Only put on 2 bands during the week and you still prolly cover your margins.


The states are brutal in one sense, if you don't draw an sell booze, you won't get shows.

That's that.

But I you can bring a hundred people pretty regularly you'll make at least 150-200 per show.

Get on bigger bills, make a lot more.

My last band made a couple grand more than once.

Very confusing situation here, but fuck it, I hvent played for nothing for years (aside from a few industry/charity things) and I'm not about to start now.

 

[I Bleed Black]

A pint costs then prolly less than a quid and they sell it for five. .

I hate to say it but your way off with that estimation.

 

[MilanPan!c]

How much donthey buy pint for... I base tht math on US numbers... I'll happily admit I could be off, but I very much doubt they spent 3e for pints and sell them for 5.

I would also bet that based on the business the bar does Whelans could easily pay bands.

 

[GO]

Playin shows in the states is a whole different ballgame.

Mind you I never got paid playing there but the free drugz were WAAAAAAYYYYY better.

 

[worthit]

Whelans rent out the bar to promoters. I don't think they have any say in whether bands get paid or not. I've no idea how much it costs to rent Whelans.

 

[I Bleed Black]

How much donthey buy pint for... I base tht math on US numbers... I'll happily admit I could be off, but I very much doubt they spent 3e for pints and sell them for 5.

I would also bet that based on the business the bar does Whelans could easily pay bands.

Pubs would pay somewhere between 2-2.50 euros per pint wholesale I'd say and they have a huge amount of overheads to cover with the profit they make such as barstaff, door staff, security, heating, electricity, rent and taxes. It's all irrelevent anyway because as worthit has said the vast majority of the time it's the gig promoter that pays (or doesn't pay) the bands, the bar has just rented out their space for the night. The arguement could be made that bars and venues should charge less than they do but there are a lot of poorly attended gigs in Dublin so there's no guarentee that they will make back the difference on the bar so they just cover their own asses. I'd doubt even places like Whelans make that much on the bar at midweek gigs tbh.

 

[hugh]

How much donthey buy pint for... I base tht math on US numbers... I'll happily admit I could be off, but I very much doubt they spent 3e for pints and sell them for 5.

I would also bet that based on the business the bar does Whelans could easily pay bands.

Yeah, but they don't operate on that model (as Worthit just pointed out). They operate on the model that the promoter (which could simply be the main band) rents the venue for a fixed fee. If you get enough people in you make money and they make a tidy sum on bar sales. If you don't get enough people in you lose money (and they lose out on bar sales). If you fill the place completely you can make a lot of money, and so do they. It's not an unreasonable system.

 

[Flux]

I've played 40 or so gigs, and got some money for about half. Always felt guilty taking more than petrol money cos they were usually shite.

 

[GO]

I have payed 500 plus gigs.

I can remember geting paid about 5 times.

 

[shower another shower]

Hobbies generally cost a bit of money.

 

[MilanPan!c]

Yeah, but they don't operate on that model (as Worthit just pointed out). They operate on the model that the promoter (which could simply be the main band) rents the venue for a fixed fee. If you get enough people in you make money and they make a tidy sum on bar sales. If you don't get enough people in you lose money (and they lose out on bar sales). If you fill the place completely you can make a lot of money, and so do they. It's not an unreasonable system.

to be clear, I am aware of the way the system works, I just think it's both unnecessary and in fact detrimental to the scene, etc.

You get what you pay for; if Irish venues paid better there'd be more GREAT bands.

And, if there were more truly GREAT bands all the talent wouldn't eventually flee to the UK.

IMO.

And of course there are some great bands here, but how many musicians in Ireland only play in cover/wedding bands because they can make money that way.

It's sad.

 

[worthit]

You get what you pay for; if Irish venues paid better there'd be more GREAT bands.

As much as I'd like for bands to get paid for their gigs, I really hope you don't actually believe that statement. If the great bands of the world decided they were going to call it a day because they weren't making any money then most of the best music would never have been made. And I think if someone has money in mind when they are creating music then it's going to seriously compromise what that music sounds like. I'd like to think that if someone is lucky enough to be making really great music, then they'd be doing it just because they couldn't live without doing it. I think the Richter Collective is releasing some of the best music in the world right now and none of those bands are packing up for England. I doubt many of them get a lot of money for gigs either because loads of them are working day jobs to support it.

I'd say Abedisi Shank lose the shirts off their back every time they do a Japanese tour. I hope they break even at least but I get the impression that they'd get themselves over there regardless because they love doing it. So don't equate not being paid for gigs with a lack of great music because the greatest music comes from the people who get fuck all for doing it. They just kind of have to do it. It's just what they do.

 

[GO]

I had to pay into my own gig once

 

[Lili Marlene]

If the great bands of the world decided they were going to call it a day because they weren't making any money then SOME of the best music would never have been made.

Plenty of great music was made by people who wouldn't have made it if they weren't being paid.


Just sayin'.

 

[hugh]

to be clear, I am aware of the way the system works, I just think it's both unnecessary and in fact detrimental to the scene, etc.

Well the Roisin Dubh would be an example of a venue that operates along the lines of what (I think) you are advocating i.e. the venue acts as the promoter, and hence absorbs the bulk of the profit, or the loss. The bands get paid by the venue. Presumably, if you are a reasonably popular band, you negotiate your fee with the venue beforehand. It's also a reasonable system, and yes, it's very attractive from the point of view of the band. You don't have to worry about promoting it, you don't spend two hours before the gig wondering if enough people are going to turn up so you can afford to pay the venue, and so on.

However, I don't see how it necessarily follows that such an approach is less "detrimental to the scene". Imagine if all the venues operated in this way. Essentially that means that all gigs are now organised and controlled by a small group of venues/promoters - it is unlikely that all of them will be as cool as Gugai - and therefore seems more likely, to me, to lead to a more homogenised music scene. How do small independent promoters put on gigs if they can't rent venues? How do bands no-one has heard of manage to persuade these venue owners/promoters that they deserve a break?

You get what you pay for; if Irish venues paid better there'd be more GREAT bands.

Again, I don't see how this necessarily follows. Are you saying that if venues paid better, then being in a band would be more financially viable, so more talented people would stick at it rather than doing something else? Well, under either system, you get paid in proportion to how many people you drag in the door. Under the venue-as-promoter model, the venue are not going to keep paying you big bucks if no-one turns up to your gigs. Under the band-as-promoter model, you're not going to be able to keep doing it unless people turn up to your gigs. It obviously works the other way round as well. If people turn up to your gigs you will make money - under either system. I would argue that you might have more potential to make money under the band-as-promoter model ....

And of course there are some great bands here, but how many musicians in Ireland only play in cover/wedding bands because they can make money that way.

It's sad.

Lot's - and I agree it is sad. But I am not sure that it is because of the economic model of how gigs operate. I think it has more to do with the limitations of the market here for original music ... or something. I'm really not sure ...

 

[ann post]

ireland is a small island with one moderately sized city. thinking in american, european or even uk terms about anything is pretty pointless

 

[MilanPan!c]

Didn't mean to stir up shit guys.

All I was trying to say was that, if bands made money more musicians would stay on the creative side of the scene. If bands made money many bands would stick it out a bit longer. And if bands made money they mght be more inclined to try and draw bigger crowds.

I don't really think it's got anything to do with the size Of Ireland either. I'm from Arkansas, every band that plays at the crappy indie club (Vinos) gets paid. The venues there just accept that that's the nature of the game and base their business model around that reality.

It could certainly happen here.

To be clear:

you don't have to make money to be good or care about music, but if you did make money you might care a bit more and more talented people might try a bit longer to stay creative/not join wedding bands.

All my opinion of course; just responding to my own experiences of the US/UK/Ireland.

 

[MilanPan!c]

hugh

in the US promoters can still rent venues if they choose, that's not the only way (or even the most common way) in. Bands literally send venues promo crap and booking agents book the clubs. Clubs have two models: style of music or size of band. So there's clubs that only really book rock/indie bands and clubs that only book bands that sell 1000+ tix.

That means that you don't have a homogized scene, you have small nche venues for small niche genres and so on.

It's a different system and it has different end goals (like I said, if you can't sell beer, you can't get gigs) but bands almost always get paid.

One of my old bands started a festival of sorts in Boston... Art music spoken word etc. We had dozens of bands play over the 4 years it ran. All got paid. Even the spoken word idiots.

We planned the whole thing around paying bands and took a loss the first year, personally. But the last year we made a killing.

 

[hugh]

Didn't mean to stir up shit guys.

Not at all ...... it's an interesting thing to talk about ....

That means that you don't have a homogized scene, you have small nche venues for small niche genres and so on.

I would suspect that the problem here is that the economics of licensing/insurance/etc make it almost impossible to run small niche venues ...

Anyway .... gotta run so can't try and respond to the other stuff you said ... will be thinking about it though ...