Sexism, god help us (5 Viewers)

[egg_]

What do you mean by "easy"? I reckon employers would fight that pretty fucking hard

 

[egg_]

@Lili Marlene - afaik the thermodynamic explanation of obesity is still the mainstream scientific one. There was a long discussion of this on hacker news a while ago, and apparently the food fed to lab animals has changed in a similar way to cheap human food over the last 50 years

 

[nooleen]

I think there is.

the first two articles that crop up when i google glass ceiling don't say that

Empowering Women in Business - The Glass Ceiling - Feminist Majority Foundation

DEACE: (Already) On the 2016 Iowa caucus trail - Washington Times

i'm not about to check every article on the internet but you would need to check at least a few yourself before presenting that argument as fact

 

[nooleen]

I thought we were talking about a newspaper article.

did you? i did reply specifically to a quote from you about genetics

I don't even know what "gender" means, tbh. I grew up among scientists, the subtleties of these kinds of things are kinda lost on me.

there isn't any subtlety in the difference between gender and genetics

 

[Lili Marlene]

@Lili Marlene - afaik the thermodynamic explanation of obesity is still the mainstream scientific one. There was a long discussion of this on hacker news a while ago, and apparently the food fed to lab animals has changed in a similar way to cheap human food over the last 50 years

Hacker news? Jesus man, I don't want to know. Anyway, that's only a small part of the article and not my overall point.

here, have you read this from the other thread? If you really want to get into it all knock yourself out, but simple binary science this aint:

The Dispute Between Radical Feminism and Transgenderism

 

[egg_]

You did indeed

but then you said you thought we were talking about gender, and I took that to mean that you thought the whole thread was about gender

erm ... it doesn't matter anyway, I was just hoping to prevent this thread turning into a thread about gender, because if it did I'd be lost

 

[nooleen]

how could a thread about sexism not be about gender?

 

[jonah]

there's a pretty easy fix for the pay disparity problem too.
Make the paternity leave and the maternity leave equal.
Then there no disincentive for hiring a young woman (assuming that was the root cause fo the problem)
And both partners absent themselves from the workplace for the same duration (assuming that was the root cause)

Unless you're talking about drastically increasing paternity leave - and don't get me wrong, I think men are given a grossely small leave - rather than the inverse, I have to take a LARGE amount of issue with the notion that men and women should have equal maternity/paternity leaves. First point being the women has just given birth to the goddamn baby.

This is not a solution.

 

[therealjohnny]

It’s the difference, of which there are none, that make the sameness exceptional! Just tell me what to say!!

 

[egg_]

Anyway, that's only a small part of the article and not my overall point.

Ok

Your overall point is "simple binary science this aint", right?

That's fair enough, but there is very very little that's either simple or binary in science, once you get past 18th century physics

If you really want to get into it all knock yourself out

I really don't want to get into all this, thanks very much

I guess my original question has been kinda answered at this stage

 

[egg_]

how could a thread about sexism not be about gender?

"gender" has turned into a fierce complicated word, and I've kinda lost track of what it means

Let me try and understand the simple stuff first

 

[jonah]

there's a pretty easy fix for the pay disparity problem too.
Make the paternity leave and the maternity leave equal.
Then there no disincentive for hiring a young woman (assuming that was the root cause fo the problem)
And both partners absent themselves from the workplace for the same duration (assuming that was the root cause)

Also in what world are the incontestable differences between women and men's wages related to maternity leave?

Is the implication that when you hire a woman, she will get pregnant at some point? Not true. Even if most women do go on to have children during their active career, should there be some sort of implication that every woman coming into an organisation will get pregnant?

 

[egg_]

This thread has been great, all the same. I haven't lost this much productive time on thumped in years

 

[Unicron]

Unless you're talking about drastically increasing paternity leave - and don't get me wrong, I think men are given a grossely small leave - rather than the inverse, I have to take a LARGE amount of issue with the notion that men and women should have equal maternity/paternity leaves. First point being the women has just given birth to the goddamn baby.

This is not a solution.

Should adoptive mothers be given less time off?

 

[Mormon Nailer]

Unless you're talking about drastically increasing paternity leave - and don't get me wrong, I think men are given a grossely small leave - rather than the inverse, I have to take a LARGE amount of issue with the notion that men and women should have equal maternity/paternity leaves. First point being the women has just given birth to the goddamn baby.

This is not a solution.

I mean increase parernity leave.
If the point of parental leave was just recuperation we could do what the US do and have fuck all? They seem capable of getting back to work there pretty soon after the birth.

 

[тхеодоре кацзынски]

Also in what world are the incontestable differences between women and men's wages related to maternity leave?

Not to say that the total difference is related to it but surely when it comes to promotion (and hence higher wages) the person who is most unlikely to go missing for up to 42 weeks (ie the man) is most likely to get the nod, no?

 

[jonah]

Should adoptive mothers bengiven less time off?

Not even a little bit. Sorry my argument there made it sound like I think women giving birth to a baby is what makes them solely entitled to leave and I don't think that at all. When you have a new baby in your life its hard - I'm sure - and that's a huge huge thing for both parents, regardless of their gender.

That said, I still think that there is so much stress upon a woman's body when she has given birth - even a healthy birth takes months to fully recover from and this doesn't take into account caesarian, post-natal depression, and other complications that can arise that are completely ignored by this implication.

Women who have given birth have done something incredible and something stressful to their systems. They need that time, and deserve it.

Adoptive women and fathers do too, I'm really not implying they don't Like I said I think men deserve a huge amount more than they have, in Ireland its something like... 2 days??? That's insane! They may not have to physically recover, but emotionally they are just as impacted. Plus the actual practicalities and upheaval... they deserve more, I fully agree with that.

My question was more about people who believe maternity leave should be decreased and the vital things that this ignores.

 

[Mormon Nailer]

Also in what world are the incontestable differences between women and men's wages related to maternity leave?

The argument is that
a. the prejudice against hiring women who may end up taking a not insignificant chunk of maternity leave (perhaps multiple times), acts against women
b. Other people's careers progress while the woman is on maternity leave leaving her behind in both promotion and pay.

Is the implication that when you hire a woman, she will get pregnant at some point? Not true. Even if most women do go on to have children during their active career, should there be some sort of implication that every woman coming into an organisation will get pregnant?

I'm not saying it's true, but the prejudice does exist, I've seen it. And as such must have an impact, the actual facts aren't the point.

 

[jonah]

Not to say that the total difference is related to it but surely when it comes to promotion (and hence higher wages) the person who is most unlikely to go missing for up to 42 weeks (ie the man) is most likely to get the nod, no?

Agreed, I'm sure that will be the thinking. But is that a fair prejudgement for women who don't plan on having kids? Or who plan on working just as hard as men to compensate for the time they might miss? Or who might be far more qualified for the job?

The idea that women can be pre-judged on the provision that they *might* get pregnant is incredulous and so limited to a very narrow understanding of the lives that women may choose to lead, especially in this day and age.

 

[jonah]

I mean increase parernity leave.
If the point of parental leave was just recuperation we could do what the US do and have fuck all? They seem capable of getting back to work there pretty soon after the birth.

Women in the US who go back to work right away are the ones that are paid the least and who can't afford to not be there, considering they get a total of zero weeks paid maternity. That's a tragedy, nothing to do with capability.