Sexism, god help us (1 Viewer)

[Squiggle]

@scutter
Maternity leave (paid) is a maximum of 26 weeks, 2 of which must be taken before the estimate date of birth (which can be out by as much as 3 weeks in either direction) and at least 4 of which must be taken after the birth of the baby. Since most women are paid considerably less on maternity leave than when working, statutory maternity benefit payment is a fixed sum, many women in Ireland have no choice but to return before 26 weeks. There is the possibility of taking a period of unused annual leave, and there is a total of maximum 16 weeks additional unpaid maternity leave available for those who can afford it. Some women are fortunate and their employers top up their maternity benefit to full salary for the 26 weeks, which makes taking some unpaid more feasible.

Each parent, now including adoptive, of a child under 8 years of age is entitled to 18 weeks unpaid leave (which must be taken between the birth of the child and its 8 year birthday) and must be applied for, approved by employer etc.

The problem with a "need" based system is who would assess need. It would be highly problematic, and probably result in a less, rather than more, equitable situation than we currently have.

In an ideal world both parents would have at least full months off after the birth of a child. The mother needs someone to look after her and other children so she can look after her very needy newborn.

Adoption in this country is another massive can of worms, the law as it stands benefits nobody.

 

[Squiggle]

Clearly this happened to you @Squiggle, but I'd be reluctant to generalise it as a girl/guy thing. I probably know a few more guys than girls who are sporty, but not that many more and I know way more men than women, on account of the nature of my job. Also your mid-teens have gotta be 20 years ago now, things have changed a fair bit since then (especially in the GAA)

Oh, one other thing - my daughters both do dancing and drama classes, and there are about 10 girls for every boy in those. You get similar ratios in dance classes for grown ups, come to think of it. Is that also part of the problem? Do you think all gender roles are harmful?

Not just to me, my experiences were shared with female peers. For example, there were 7 of us who regularly played lunchtime rugby with a similarly sized group of guys, but when the school decided there was interest to start teams they basically told us there was no way we would get a girls team, or a mixed one.

I have three nieces, two of whom are in primary school, and things don't seem to have changed much. One of them was told by the teacher she couldn't play soccer at lunchtime because the boys would hurt her, even though she plays with her uncles, 6'7" dad and ultra competitive grandfather regularly.

As per the article I posted above, gender stereotyping starts before they're even born, and continues though clothes, toys etc. It does boys a disservice too, teaching them to think that the only emotions they're allowed to feel are anger and aggression. If we spent more time looking at the commonality of the human condition and less at the 'differences', real or perceived, everyone would have more opportunity to reach their individual potential in any field they chose.

Edited: I forgot to mention that it was me and another girl, and one guy, who asked for the lunchtime rugby and organised a teacher to supervise and referee.

 

[7 - No tomorrow]

While I definitely understand the need for maternity leave, I worked in a two-person department where the other person had two babies in two years. There was no money to hire someone else and I did her work for the best part of those two years.
I quit the job. She was talking about having a third.

I'm sure her babies are great and all, but I was felt like jumping out a fucking window from the stress.

 

[egg_]

even though she plays with her uncles, 6'7" dad and ultra competitive grandfather regularly

Oh come on. Playing with grownups who care about you is a world away from playing with other kids who just want to get the better of you

 

[Squiggle]

That is certainly the flipside, but women can find themselves in that situation just as easily as men. And no man who wants children finds himself having to schedule it around other people's reproductive status, training opportunities, retirements, potentials for promotion and eligibility timeframes (in some companies who pay top up you have to have been working there a fixed period of time to be eligible). Arguably the current situation, where men have limited leave, makes things simultaneously easier for fathers (can't do night time and aren't around during the day) and more difficult for mothers (no backup).

 

[7 - No tomorrow]

Oh come on. Playing with grownups who care about you is a world away from playing with other kids who just want to get the better of you

Are you deliberately missing the point?

No one should be told they can't do something because they're a girl.

I'd fucking take the head off someone that said that to my sisters or nieces.

 

[Lili Marlene]

I am shocked if @egg_ seriously got to this age without ever coming across a person who questioned gender roles. I mean... he's been on thumped for how long?

 

[Squiggle]

Oh come on. Playing with grownups who care about you is a world away from playing with other kids who just want to get the better of you

Ah, you haven't met her father, uncles or grandfather... they don't remember they are playing with a 5 year old girl, and she's escaped injury on several occasions only because she knows how to pick her battles and when to dive and curl up in a ball.

But these are other kids her age, and most of them about 6 inches shorter than her... so you think, that because she's a girl, and they would want to get the better of her, she shouldn't even be allowed to try? Don't you think there is something wrong with that way of thinking?

Whatever about at 13 or 14, when the girls would most likely kill the poor little prepubescent boys, or at 16 or 17 when the boys have passed the girls out again and are making up for lost time... before the age of 12 there is very little difference between a boy and a girl other than in their underwear and how they are taught to think about themselves.

 

[pete]

Should there not be an element of 'need' about maternity leave? I'm not sure how it could be quantified but why 27 weeks when some people clearly need more and some people could clearly do with less?

Because it should be for the child's benefit, not the parents.

 

[egg_]

Gah, work is hotting up after lunch and I can't continue this

but anyway - fuck's sake dudes, I don't think that kids should be prevented doing things because they're girls or boys or whatever. I've 2 girls myself. Yes, I do think there's something wrong with that way of thinking. But I don't see that girls as a group are generally excluded from sports by their immediate social environments. My own girls exclude themselves from sports, and despite years of rough and tumble play with me are basically wimps. Their teachers would be fucking delighted if they engaged during PE, but they don't.

So are girls are less likely to be interested in sports because of biological or social factors? It doesn't matter. The end result is the same, and there's very little anyone can do about it

 

[rettucs]

Just RE GAA, I remember frequently playing against girls, at least up to the age of 14. After that age they'd head off to the camogie team who were, by in large, of the more dainty variety of child. The girls playing with the lads would be naturally stronger and more physical than the camogie girls.

Then in my coaching days we'd frequently arrange matches for the camogie team (adult team) to play against the lads. But, it would have made no sense to play against the adult men's team as it would have been a complete mismatch. We played against the under-15, under-16 and under-18 (minor) lads teams. We found the most equitable match was against the under-16s, in terms of physicality.

And we definitely had to fight our corner to get a bit of notice and support within the club. But, a lot of that was down to the fact that up until that point (I was the first 'proper' coach they ever had) the team was trained by well-meaning (but not really up-to-the-job) parents who were just happy to go along with what was happening. In fairness to the club though they did get behind us eventually and the team was treated (almost) as well as any other team in the club (the difference would be to do with the amount of sponsorship money you could bring in - the more you bring in, the more you have to spend on the team).

 

[pete]

While I definitely understand the need for maternity leave, I worked in a two-person department where the other person had two babies in two years. There was no money to hire someone else and I did her work for the best part of those two years.
I quit the job. She was talking about having a third.

I'm sure her babies are great and all, but I was felt like jumping out a fucking window from the stress.

that's a management / resource allocation issue. society knows women have babies and society has decided they should be entitled to maternity leave. companies need to factor these facts into their staffing policies.

 

[pete]

What this thread needs to get it back on topic is this guy

but with "it's man city, not woman city"

 

[rettucs]

Because it should be for the child's benefit, not the parents.

are these mutually exclusive?

 

[pete]

are these mutually exclusive?

no, just saying the child shouldn't be penalised because your or I might think the mother might be having it too easy

 

[rettucs]

no, just saying the child shouldn't be penalised because your or I might think the mother might be having it too easy

ah ok. My point was moreso that if someone 'needs' more than 27 weeks they should be able to get it.

I shouldn't have mentioned about some maybe needing less than 27 weeks as that confuses my point.

Either way I agree with you.

 

[7 - No tomorrow]

that's a management / resource allocation issue. society knows women have babies and society has decided they should be entitled to maternity leave. companies need to factor these facts into their staffing policies.

I get that. I do.

And in a perfect world it's true.

The irony is that I hate parenting and what it has done to most of my adult relationships. Babies are great but they have disrupted my later adult years like a fucking tornado.
In my coming dictatorship, no one has babies and we get by on foreign adoptions.

 

[Lili Marlene]

I get that. I do.

And in a perfect world it's true.

The irony is that I hate parenting and what it has done to most of my adult relationships. Babies are great but they have disrupted my later adult years like a fucking tornado.
In my coming dictatorship, no one has babies and we get by on foreign adoptions.

How about you just allow immigration but no one under 18? Would solve child abuse problems as well. Oh sure there'd be loads of unhappy people who want to have children but hey, it's a dictatorship right?

to this thread! - Radical legislation you’d love to pass | Page 10 | thumped.com

 

[Lili Marlene]

It doesn't matter. The end result is the same, and there's very little anyone can do about it

Did Sid Vicious die for this?

 

[7 - No tomorrow]

How about you just allow immigration but no one under 18? Would solve child abuse problems as well. Oh sure there'd be loads of unhappy people who want to have children but hey, it's a dictatorship right?

to this thread! - Radical legislation you’d love to pass | Page 10 | thumped.com

Everyone would be free to hang with me at weekends.
More than makes up for it.