Question about bass D.I/mic (1 Viewer)

[the pyrate dead]

Hi
I've got the raw tracks of a recording that is being handed to someone to mix. I want to be able to communicate what I want out of the bass as best I can, and so have some questions!

I play through a beautiful mat amp, and I love the sound of it. We had some valid concerns about recording only the mic, so recorded the D.I. also. The thing is, I'm really into the sound of the mic signal, but when its used along with the full band, due to what I assume to be frequency issues, it wavers a lot in and out of the song. The amp I use has quite high gain, a lot of bass and the presence isn't really that huge in the mix. Obviously the D.I. signal is punchier and cuts through the other instruments well throughout the songs. We had tried pushing the high mids on the mic track, which pushed the sound through things a little better, but it still wasn't totally right.

I'm not well versed in discussing with engineers how they can fix things for me, so I wanted to find out a little more about the options I have come to in my head whilst not knowing much, namely:
blending mic and D.I./getting the best from just the mic/using the D.I. recording and running it through my amp at better settings (is that a thing?!)

Anyone want to impart some wisdom to me?!

 

[japeo]

hey if you mix the two signals you might get some phasing issues which would result in the bass wavering as you say, if you JUST use the mic signal or JUST the d.i does it not waver ? if so then it's probably that.. the wavering is known as comb filtering and is annoying

you can fix this by shifting one of the waveforms ( either by hand or using a phase shifter ) so that it sounds 'right'

the other thing you have to watch is the relationship between the kik drum and the bass guitar, and even the other guitars if they play low frequencies..

there's only so much room in the mix so if the kik is occupying a space where the bass is also trying to occupy you can get clashes and a muddy low end..

it's a good idea to work out which frequencies suit each bass thing ( kik, bass, synths whatever ) best and use e.q to sort of notch out a unique space for each one..

that's a short answer but i hope it helps a little bit

richie

 

[RED(tape)MENACE]

I'll attempt to answer this in less than 2000 words, give me a few minutes

 

[pissypants]

Hey why not post a link to a short section of the bass track - 2 different synchronised: WAVs the DI and Amp track - actually hearing it could make a huge difference in the opinions you'll get here.

 

[ernesto]

if youre using a mac: http://www.440audio.com/en/software/v4106-TriTone-Digital-PhaseTone/

/ also i would think that zooming into both the mic waveform and DI wave form and making sure they are exactly aligned would allow you to blend both tracks alot easier as theyd be in phase

i think

 

[RED(tape)MENACE]

I've got the raw tracks of a recording that is being handed to someone to mix. I want to be able to communicate what I want out of the bass as best I can, and so have some questions!

I play through a beautiful mat amp, and I love the sound of it. We had some valid concerns about recording only the mic, so recorded the D.I. also. The thing is, I'm really into the sound of the mic signal…

This is a beast of many backs, so to speak.

On the one hand, you’re absolutely right in that you’ve arrived at a sound that you enjoy and feel works well for the band and you want to protect that.

However, and I’ll get the scary stuff out of the way first – the mixer will do anything and everything in his power to make the mix work as a whole. While your bass sound may be liquid ear sex when heard in isolation, it may just not work in the context of one, some or all of the mixes (I assume this is an album, or at least a collection of songs).

Typically, the mixer will start with your mic’d bass sound and work from there, perhaps adding some of the DI track, perhaps running a copy of that through an amp sim too, certainly he’ll mangle the motherfuck out of it with EQ, compression and a bunch of other tools if he needs to.

How does this make us feel? Sure, what you may end up with is a tone that diverges significantly from the starting point and by extension the sound that you have ‘in your head’. But what we also now have is a bass sound that works in the context of the mix and complements the other instruments and elements in the song.

Bass can very often seem to be an afterthought, particularly in heavy music. This is a function of how little room there is in a rock mix with screaming guitars and massive drums occupying most of the available space. Quite often there’s a limited area available for the bass to do a job in, but that’s not to say that it doesn’t fulfil a very important role (unless you’re Jason Newstead and you’re only allowed play the root notes). The mixer will have to find a place in the mix where the bass can fulfil that role. You may end up with a tone that would sound comical or even bad when heard in isolation, but in the context of the mix as a whole, the isolated sound of a single instrument is completely irrelevant.

Everyone will need to man up and take one for the team to a greater or lesser extent, and bass often ends up being the former.

when its used along with the full band, due to what I assume to be frequency issues, it wavers a lot in and out of the song. The amp I use has quite high gain, a lot of bass and the presence isn't really that huge in the mix.

Ok, so there’s one (or both) of two things happening here.

First candidate is the aforementioned ‘space in the mix’ phenomenon. Some of the notes are smothered by other things happening in the mix while others have more room either because of what is or isn’t happening with other elements of the arrangement.

An example of this would be a section where everyone’s on the root note versus another section where the guitars go up the fretboard and start noodling like demented badgers. We’ve all seen that happen, right?
The other possibility is that there’s a real difference in volume between some of the notes you’re playing.
This can be caused by a guitar that needs to be set up a little better, EQ on the amp being centred close to the fundamental of one or more of the notes or a variety of other things on the bass/amp side of things.

There’s also the possibility that the mic placement is accentuating some notes and/or attenuating others due to proximity effect, placement or whatever.

All of this assumes that we’re only listening to the microphone track.
As soon as you bring in the DI you’re multiplying the things that can go wrong.

As mentioned above, the Mic and DI signals will be out of phase with each other. This results in frequency selective cancellation and reinforcement. What that means is that as with the possibilities above, some notes will be made louder, and some quieter.

Obviously the D.I. signal is punchier and cuts through the other instruments well throughout the songs. We had tried pushing the high mids on the mic track, which pushed the sound through things a little better, but it still wasn't totally right.

If you ask me, DIs are a load of bollocks. They bear no relation whatsoever to the sound that comes out of an amp, no more so than a DI’d guitar does. Now when I get a DI in a mix I will never, ever use it ‘as is’. A DI needs radical EQ and treatment before it’s allowed anywhere near music, to my mind. Unfortunately, a lot of live engineers disagree :/

A raw DI track will have way, way, way more midrange and high frequency content than the tone that comes from an amp. It can also have more content at the very low end of the frequency spectrum. Quite often a mixer will blend the DI in with the amp track and carve the fuck out of the DI until it’s either giving him the clarity or the sub bass that he’s missing from the amp track.

I'm not well versed in discussing with engineers how they can fix things for me, so I wanted to find out a little more about the options I have come to in my head whilst not knowing much, namely:
blending mic and D.I./getting the best from just the mic/using the D.I. recording and running it through my amp at better settings (is that a thing?!)

The short answer here is that you’ll have to trust the mixer to get the best out of the recording – not just of your bass part, but achieving a blend of all the instruments that works for the song. You should absolutely explain to him that you like your amp tone but that you’re also providing a DI track to give him options. Mixers always appreciate more options!

Let him worry about how, when or if he’s going to make use of all those options. If he knows what he’s doing, I’m sure you’ll be happy with the results.

Running the recorded DI back through and amp is indeed possible (it’s usually called reamping). I quite often use a plugin to do the same job (Softube Bass Amp Room – lovvvve it), but your mixer may even use a real amp. Who knows?!

Again though, let him get on with it while clearly and concisely explaining what you’re looking for and I’m sure everything will work out a-o-k.

 

[Space]

That's a great answer.

 

[the pyrate dead]

I really need to learn to save my text before hitting reply, being sent to log in again and losing it all!

Anyway, wow, wow, wow. Thanks so much for such amazing answers. That all answers a lot of my thoughts and also fits in with a lot of my unfounded theories, and there is LOADS to think about there. Awesome awesome!

I've sent my instructions, and for the first time in many many years they use minimal "like kinda more like less fluuuufffy on like the purpleness and stuff you know?" Im delighted, and 100% more able to explain what I want vs whats needed and how to sort that out while keeping us all happy. Perfect!

Yous should run courses, so many of us play but neglect to learn anything because technical knowledge can seem so big and scary and sciencey, especially when you look stuff up and find only answers for people already in the know filled with hard to understand jargon. These answers are crystal clear, yous are only gorgeous!

 

[Cormcolash]

I'm totally with Pete on this one - FUCK DIs!!!

They are grand for live sound generally, but using them for recordings is a complete pain in the hole I find, and I much prefer the more natural sound coming from the amp anyway.

Also, bass tracks almost always need a load of compression regardless of anything else, and it is possible that there is not enough compression on them. In my opinion, loads of people are scared of compression - when you're recording heavy shit with guitars all over the place, I've found that I don't have to worry about any negative effects from firing loads of compression on drums and bass. Basically, if it sounds good, it fucking sounds good, and I don't care how much compression there is on it! Lots of people will say you need to limit the amount of compression or it will damage the sound etc. If you have the Sodb tape, I can tell you that there is fucking SHITLOADS of compression on it, and it still sounds good!

The only other thing I would say is, what kind of speakers are you listening to the mix on? Because obviously, you need a decent pair of speakers to get good bass - if you are using laptop speakers, you're not going to hear any bass anyway, and the same goes for most kinds of in-ear headphones. For instance, those headphones you get with an iPod or whatever, whilst I find are actually decent in-ear phones, they are still completely shit for bass.

Volume is an issue here too - the lower the volume you have in your speakers, the less bass you will hear in the mix, as a rule of thumb. Good mixing engineers will mix stuff at very low volumes, because once you can hear everything at those volumes, when you turn it up it should sound class, and that is pretty much entirely because of how volume affects the ear's perception of bass frequencies. Still, you can pretty much disregard the volume thing I guess, because if it is a good mix then you should be able to hear it anyway, whether the speakers are on low volume or high volume.

Finally, Karen when you get sent to the log-in page, just log-in and it will hopefully post your message up without losing all the text! I just did that for this one

 

[ann post]

the last few years i was playing bass live i just put it in the d.i. with no amp and told the sound-man to do whatever he liked. que loads of people telling me my bass sounds amazing.

 

[Cormcolash]

Yeah, DI with no amp can work really well live, I've used them for violin and keyboard and it can sound great, but DIs are shite for recording if you ask me!!!

 

[GO]

Amplitube SVX.Little bit of distortion..compressor on max..

Job done!

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