PPP... (1 Viewer)

[Cormy]

Sorry, Dan...who the fuck are you?

And why do you presume to know so much about me & my motives? Cheeky cunt.

So what's lead you to decide that I'm "completely clueless about what I'm protesting against" and "doing it because I want to get myself some more credibility as a punker"?

I'm not one to blow my own fucking trumpet, as you seem to be doing about yourself ("Protesting against something I know something about and I think is wrong" -you fucking hero), and wouldn't if you hadn't put me up to it, but do you think I stayed up until 3am last Thursday night in a warehouse in Phibsboro making banners for the anti-war protest on Saturday before cycling home and getting up at 8am to poster for the same protest, even though I unfortunately wouldn't be able to "take the cred" for them (oh woe is me) since I had to go home that weekend and was unable to attend the protest regardless (when I could have just gone to GZ that night and had a laugh with my mates instead) just to further my own "punk credibility", or whatever?

Don't you think it's a bit strange that I'm currently putting my own time, money & energy in helping to set up Indy Media in Irleand?

Isn't it just a little bit contrary to your little rant that in a minute I'll be going home & spending the evening phoning people trying to find a fucking place to get shit together for the anti-PPP protests?

And, is it not just the tiniest bit curious that with me here apparently looking to further my "credibility as a punker" by doing these things, that you wouldn't even have known about them if it wasn't for you challenging my motives?

You fucking tit.

Explain yourself please.

 

[W.]

is the blockade still going ahead ? a lot of ppl i've taked to about this (which is actually quite a lot) are up for a bit of "non - fence sitting" .

 

[silo]

yojimbo...

your post about 'peaceful' protest was based on flawed assumptions, i think. you say the velvet revolution "was definitely a peaceful protest, but it felt pretty direct to all the people involved". this is precisely because it was a direct action. the fact that it was peaceful is not the point. it is the mainstream media who desperately try to portray all protest as 'peaceful' vs. 'violent', though of course the police or army are never subject to such rigourous division.

just a semantic point, but important nonetheless...

 

[Stephen]

here lads what cormy is talking about is civil disobedience. ie. protestors who are willing to break the law. This doesn't mean being violent, but the cops might decide to be violent because YOU ARE BREAKING THE LAW.
While the peaceful protest cormy is opposed to it, is the cop cordoned off "down with this sort of thing", " careful now" heads standing around shouting at each other.

Which I might add, that protest on Saturday was. and therefore was shit.
And pete I'm still working on getting me shit together to find out who's benefiting the most from the PPP but somehow I still think its the private companies.

 

[pete]

Stephen (03 Oct, 2001 02:22 p.m.):
And pete I'm still working on getting me shit together to find out who's benefiting the most from the PPP but somehow I still think its the private companies.

And this is a good thing.

Blindly accepting what the government / state / The Man wants you to accept is bad - but protesting against something just because someone suggests you should, or because it seems like the right (on) thing to do, without actually bothering to find out about it first* is a bit silly.

That was the whole point of me asking those questions in the first place...


* The only reason I know anything about PPP is because i had some involvement with it in work - if it wasn't for that i'd be just as much in the dark as anyone else, and probably be just as disinclined to read about it as anyone else. But there you go.

 

[yojimbo]

silo, what I was saying was that drawing a big distinction between direct action and peaceful protest is just misleading. Most direct action is peaceful, it's just that the protagonists can seem embarassed to admit this: "Is this a peaceful protest?" "No, it's an, erm... direct action".

And just because the media love to divide up dissenters into ''violent" (therefore mad, unreasonable, 'travelling anarchist circus', etc) and "peaceful" (therefore sane, 'reasonable') doesn't mean that the members of a movement should be reluctant to engage in exclusively peaceful protest. The vast majority of people in Genoa, for example, were doing this, and because of the size of the crowd it had a big impact, despite the media focusing mostly on the 'rioters'.

Like you say, I get the feeling we're just arguing semantics here. Let's just disagree to agree.

 

[billygannon]

I'm going to take "direct action" against Yojimbo and his dastardly den where he lives like a sloven sponge!!......

 

[yojimbo]

you'll have to catch me first, copper... I'll lose you in the back-streets of Tooting Bec.

 

[Cormy]

To be honest, my initial post about peaceful protest, etc, was a bit too black & white and I didn't explain things properly, since the form of protest is obviously case & situation specific and you can't really generalise about it...I think Stephen summed it up the best.

Interesting that the righteous Mr. Dan is MIA...

 

[Dan]

Never mind Dan Cormy, Hes just an asshole. I mean what would he know? He's not as great as you, I mean you stayed up until three making posters, I mean that is inconclusive proof that you are an authority on all issues. i have to say I really admire you. People like dan can't understand people like us.

And did you hear the way he blew he's own trumpet? I mean the guy actually claimed that the few times hes been in protests he knew what he was talking about. Can you believe it? The cheek. How he gets his head through a door I don't know.

Anyhow, I'm off to an interesting protest next week. I have heard that trocaire volunteeers, who have the full support of the government, are being actually fed while they are working in the poorest regions of the world i.e. they are profiting from the work they do. Theres very few private business in these countries. Wait a minute...its the three magic words...goverment, private, business...why I oughta...

PS.. Rumour has Dan has met you, therefore is perfectly entitled to take the piss out of you!!

 

[Cormy]

Not really surpirsing that your token reply didn't say anything, but anyway, at least you tried, eh?

Rumour has it that since you've allegedly met me & hence know who I am, you're perfectly welcome to put across your arguements to me in person and stop hiding behind an internet moniker...

 

[Dan]

My "token"(?) reply said nothing!!

And how exactly have you enlightened us?

And at least I tried?

I didn't intend to try or say anything. Just letting you know I was AWOL, not MIA.

 

[Stephen]

MEEEAWOW!!!!!!!

Ladies please!
Hand-bags at dawn!

Cormy Dan does have a point!

Dan Cormy does have a point!

Cormy Globalise Resistance are a little on the lax side when it comes to information. They tend to think it's Okay to say "this shouldn't be allowed" and everyone will somehow understand what the fuck they are going on about(this might have some thing to do with the swimmers in there). Why I am actually turning up to the PPP thing even though I still haven't had the time to read through all the shit about it is all the other groups involved. I do trust the judgement of allot of them and most of them are grass roots men on the street who wouldn't protest unless it was important.

Dan I think you are being hard on Cormy. Maybe just asking him to explain what the hell he's going on about would have been enough. No-one likes a smarmy bollix. Firstly your point about accountability was a gooden. I have a friend who(is a civil servant and) was send to destroy a load of "papers" when they were about to be asked to account for some actions they had taken.
As for the job security thing that's bullshit yes the unions have power to stop an individual being fired but what we are talking about here is when the company decides it's no longer profitable to operate and fires everyone. Who is on the dole in the morning? Well it's not the boss's I can tell ya. They seem to somehow work in a world a little higher up and even if they fall someone will catch them before they hit the ground. Whilst your ordinary working wo/man doesn't have an allot of savings going and might not own his/her own house and if they lose their job is really fucked.

Now I have a suggestion of a ladder match. Let's say later this evening Stephen's Green? I'll go down to decwells and buy a ladder now if you like?

 

[Cormy]

My response dealt with the points you made about me by demonstrating how wrong you were with concrete examples.

You merely further embarassed yourself by attempting to seem oh-so-cynical & post-modern...instead you just looked like a tit.

No offense matey.

 

[Dan]

Stephen, all you say is true and I take your point. All I was doing was playing devils advocate to a certain degree because I like to see things from both points of view. I think if people didn't take such extremes and listened instead of shouted, things would make more sense. Nothing is black and white.

No offence neither cormy. I never realised I knew how to be post-modern!

No need for those ladders either.

Jeez, I feel a whole load of love and forgiveness coming over me..

 

[Cormy]

Brings a tear to the eye...gimme a kiss Dan

 

[Stephen]

Dan (08 Oct, 2001 01:14 p.m.):
No need for those ladders either.

Sorry boss decwells don't do returns, so it's five at the green then yea?
Ye's aren't going soft on me?
Cormy's in at 5/1 and Dan's at 3/1 anyone now?

 

[jamie oliver]

So

 

[Anne OMalley]

Notwithstanding the type of squabbling that puts the "loony" back in "left" I must say I've been impressed by the depth of this discussion so far. It's good to see there are still a few who believe in the power of debate.

I have a couple of questions to put to those of you involved in activism, if any of you can spare the time to reply:

(i) What in the short term do GR protesters hope to achieve by their eponymous resistance? What about the long term?

(ii) If not the spur of competition, what do the socialists among you believe is the solution to the chronic mismanagement of state-sponsored organisations e.g. Dublin Bus?

(iii) There are many (marx included) who realise that capitalism is more promethean than many socialists seem prepared to admit. To what do you attribute the power of capital in this regard? How is it possible for capitalism to absorb and susbsume contrary ideological positions?

(iv) Is it possible for capitalism to absorb anti-capitalism itself?

To my mind these questions are unavoidable.

 

[Keeror]

Stephen (03 Oct, 2001 02:22 p.m.):
And pete I'm still working on getting me shit together to find out who's benefiting the most from the PPP but somehow I still think its the private companies.

In the case of the M50 toll bridge, that's definitely the case. CRH have made loads more back than they ever invested already, and they get to keep all the tolls for another couple of decades (30 years in total I believe).

On problem with PPP is that it requires a lot of "openness, transparency and accountability", otherwise it becomes very easy for the politicos to award lucrative contract to their industry mates who give big donations to the party coffers at election time.
I wonder if all the countries with delegates attending the PPP conference are as lucky as we are to have open and uncorruptable government?