Meeting People (1 Viewer)

[washingcattle]

Is it a case of you have people who do it, and people who don't do it and tells others to cop on, and people who don't do it but who let their mates who are the first kind get away with it? And articals like that are more about turning the last kind into the second kind and thus marginalising the first kind, which makes them less likely to engage in bad behavior of whatever type.

Huh?

 

[7 - No tomorrow]

All of these articles are part of a conversation that changes attitudes.

20 years ago almost no one was in favour of marriage equality, and look were we are now.
Similar attitudes to drink driving have been changed.
Long way to go on race, but I'd hope we're heading in the right direction.
You put forward your argument, it becomes part of a larger voice, attitudes change, conditions change.

I'm not sure soccer's anti-racism campaigns are the ones we should be holding up as the guiding light. It's only because the racism in soccer was so virulent that it was unignorable.
Football is still one of the few workplaces where you can't be out.
But it all helps.

 

[nooleen]

I don't think that's as effective as you think though. Racism and homophobia for example are rife in sports, but since sporting associations have tried to stamp it out and since men will never move away from sports that has a real effect.

sexism is being addressed in sport too

the ray rice incident, the thing with that kurtley beale lad in australia, the sian massey thing
there seems to be as many sexism rows going on as homophobia and racism rows

 

[washingcattle]

All of these articles are part of a conversation that changes attitudes.

20 years ago almost no one was in favour of marriage equality, and look were we are now.
Similar attitudes to drink driving have been changed.
Long way to go on race, but I'd hope we're heading in the right direction.
You put forward your argument, it becomes part of a larger voice, attitudes change, conditions change.

I'm not sure soccer's anti-racism campaigns are the ones we should be holding up as the guiding light. It's only because the racism in soccer was so virulent that it was unignorable.
Football is still one of the few workplaces where you can't be out.
But it all helps.

sexism is being addressed in sport too

the ray rice incident, the thing with that kurtley beale lad in australia, the sian massey thing
there seems to be as many sexism rows going on as homophobia and racism rows

I didn't say sport has fixed racism and homophobia, I'm saying sport reaches a billion times as many men and for the lack of a better term lets call them "at risk" men than any piece in the fucking guardian is ever going to.

 

[Lili Marlene]

I didn't say sport has fixed racism and homophobia, I'm saying sport reaches a billion times as many men and for the lack of a better term lets call them "at risk" men than any piece in the fucking guardian is ever going to.

Sport exists in a world with a million other things.

People who read the guardian work in the government, set the laws, apply pressure on football organizations to change, affect these men who ignore everything except the football news.

Unless you actually have some hard facts here we're just making most of this up.

 

[washingcattle]

Sport exists in a world with a million other things.

People who read the guardian work in the government, set the laws, apply pressure on football organizations to change, affect these men who ignore everything except the football news.

Unless you actually have some hard facts here we're just making most of this up.

Again that's not the point. And are you saying that how men chat up women is going to change if the guardian puts pressure on the government ?

 

[nooleen]

I didn't say sport has fixed racism and homophobia, I'm saying sport reaches a billion times as many men and for the lack of a better term lets call them "at risk" men than any piece in the fucking guardian is ever going to.

oh right, i thought you were saying there was only progress being made on racism and homophobia

 

[7 - No tomorrow]

I didn't say sport has fixed racism and homophobia, I'm saying sport reaches a billion times as many men and for the lack of a better term lets call them "at risk" men than any piece in the fucking guardian is ever going to.

The point is to reach everyone.

 

[washingcattle]

The point is to reach everyone.

Exactly reach everyone, not reach the same group of people over and over again. That's exactly what I've been saying.

 

[Lili Marlene]

Again that's not the point. And are you saying that how men chat up women is going to change if the guardian puts pressure on the government ?

Yes.

Do you think the football organizations just woke up one day and went:

"Actually, you know what? Racism isn't that sound, lets no longer be racist. I have no idea why I am thinking this but it is now my way. I have never interacted with anyone outside of football and neither has anyone else within football."

 

[hermie]

I would say an article like that, full of provokations and a willingness to tar with the same brush, does more to disuade the sensitive souls who read the Guardian online from ever coming out of their shells for fear of being a douche than persude the arrogant sycophants the piece is presumably aimed at from going back into theirs. That was my point.

I don't mean to discourage discourse, on the contrary.

 

[hermie]

sexism is being addressed in sport too

the ray rice incident, the thing with that kurtley beale lad in australia, the sian massey thing
there seems to be as many sexism rows going on as homophobia and racism rows

I don't see much being done about that Kurtley Beale incident at all. That poor woman resigned and the head coach about the only one on her side wasn't far behind her. Whereas Kurtley has plenty of defenders still.

 

[nooleen]

he's been suspended and is due to have a conduct hearing

 

[hermie]

he's been suspended and is due to have a conduct hearing

Yeah but it's something like his 4th or 5th suspension without a proper wrap on the knuckles (there are no games at present anyway). The ARU should have been stronger in their condemnation and he should be fined. Maybe he will eventually but the response has been pretty half-assed.

 

[Unicron]

Huh?

I was talking as generally as possible, but keeping it on this topic ..

Man acts creepy towards a woman, she tells him to fuck off. He thinks "bitch," or similar and acts creepy to the next one he feels like acting creepy towards. Because he doesn't respect or like women.

However for many guys like that if at some point in that story his mates say "ah here, cop on" he's maybe a bit more likely to correct his behavior. Because he may not like or respect women or at least not the ones he's trying to pull (he loves his mum), but presumably he likes/respects his mates and would rather not be ostracised by them.

It's a bit depressing because you'd like to think that the woman telling him to fuck off, or a series of them doing so, would make him think that perhaps he's acting in a bad way and he might want to adjust his behavior, but it probably doesn't. Especially if you're talking about PUA types because their game is mostly based on the laws of large numbers, eventually someone will fall for your shit and the other 19 don't matter.

And the same thing could be said of racists acting shittily towards black people, or homophobes being dicks to gay people. A negative response from people you already hate is unlikely to carry much weight because you don't really give a fuck about what they have to say.

At least, that's what I think was the point Nooly was trying to make in the post I quoted, but I may be wrong. And I'm not saying that this is how things should be, but rather suggesting that it's how things are.

 

[washingcattle]

Yes.

Do you think the football organizations just woke up one day and went:

"Actually, you know what? Racism isn't that sound, lets no longer be racist. I have no idea why I am thinking this but it is now my way. I have never interacted with anyone outside of football and neither has anyone else within football."

What the fuck are you on about ?

How exactly are governments going to change how a man chat's up a woman on public transport ?

I'm going to be fucking fascinated to hear this.


You're missing the point again it doesn't matter how football or whatever decided to try to stamp out racism it matters that they did and that the message will reach a wide demographic of people whereas the fucking Guardian doesn't it just reaches the same people over and over and over until even those people couldn't give a fuck anymore.


It's like the old charity advertising technique where you get images of starving children at dinner time. Eventually after bombarding people with them for years they found that they were doing more harm than good. The reason being the folks who saw it and were affected, pledged money. Those who didn't give a fuck continued not giving a fuck and after a while the people who did care and did pledge money just got immune to/annoyed by seeing the same adverts over and over and stopped pledging to any new concern whereas the people who didn't give a fuck continued not giving a fuck. This is what is in danger of happening.

"Have you read that article in the guardian about how what you are doing is sexist"

"Nope"

"Right so"

"Why do you read articles about sexism when you're clearly not a sexist?"

"..eh"

"Just be like me and not give a shite either way.......Hey you with the tits .... Do ya do the gee?"

at this point man#1 picks up the paper and reads about statistics on rape while man#2 picks up the sun and looks at tits.

I'm not saying that the articles shouldn't exist but I am saying that at some point there should be some sort of discussion about who they actually reach.


Jesus fucking christ.

 

[nooleen]

do...do you not understand the concept of transmission of ideas?

 

[7 - No tomorrow]

it doesn't matter how football or whatever decided to try to stamp out racism it matters that they did and that the message will reach a wide demographic of people whereas the fucking Guardian doesn't it just reaches the same people over and over and over

Do soccer campaigns not reach the same people over and over?

Listen, all of it helps. Articles, campaigns, marches, movies, whatever it may be.
The effective thing is getting the message out and changing the culture, surely?

Is the argument that Soccer is better at changing views than the Guardian is, one anyone even wants to have?

 

[Unicron]

What's the Kurtly Beale thing by the way?

 

[washingcattle]

I was talking as generally as possible, but keeping it on this topic ..

Man acts creepy towards a woman, she tells him to fuck off. He thinks "bitch," or similar and acts creepy to the next one he feels like acting creepy towards. Because he doesn't respect or like women.

However for many guys like that if at some point in that story his mates say "ah here, cop on" he's maybe a bit more likely to correct his behavior. Because he may not like or respect women or at least not the ones he's trying to pull (he loves his mum), but presumably he likes/respects his mates and would rather not be ostracised by them.

It's a bit depressing because you'd like to think that the woman telling him to fuck off, or a series of them doing so, would make him think that perhaps he's acting in a bad way and he might want to adjust his behavior, but it probably doesn't. Especially if you're talking about PUA types because their game is mostly based on the laws of large numbers, eventually someone will fall for your shit and the other 19 don't matter.

And the same thing could be said of racists acting shittily towards black people, or homophobes being dicks to gay people. A negative response from people you already hate is unlikely to carry much weight because you don't really give a fuck about what they have to say.

At least, that's what I think was the point Nooly was trying to make in the post I quoted, but I may be wrong. And I'm not saying that this is how things should be, but rather suggesting that it's how things are.

do...do you not understand the concept of transmission of ideas?

I think you're both making the same point here, so I'll try to answer both of you.

Yes, Of course, but the point I'm making is that the idea doesn't get transmitted if the person who understands and even believes in the original idea ceases to care about the idea in the first place.

Do soccer campaigns not reach the same people over and over?

Listen, all of it helps. Articles, campaigns, marches, movies, whatever it may be.
The effective thing is getting the message out and changing the culture, surely?

Is the argument that Soccer is better at changing views than the Guardian is, one anyone even wants to have?

Christ that was one example of something which reaches billions across all socio/political divides which I picked off the top of my fucking head.

I'll pick another one..... eh eurovision, there eurovision pick apart euro fucking vision and ignore any other point I was making.