Loudness War - Reports from the Frontlines (2 Viewers)

[C24]

Vinyl won't reproduce any old rubbish. Read the post again, it's not physically possible to get those ultra-compressed mastering jobs onto vinyl without distortion and with a loud cut. Same goes for tape. Therefore, the physical limitations of vinyl and tape make it more faithful to the source material especially with a frequency range of 6Hz up to 25KHz.

CD will reproduce anything in the 0-22050Hz range! You can compress and limit a song until it approaches and then becomes a square wave that will rip the cones out of your speakers and CD (read digital) will faithfully reproduce it. Why is that a good thing for music? <- and I'm not talking about experimental or noise merchants like Merzbow here.
Dynamic range as you know it doesn't exist on most CD's mastered in the last 5 years or so because it 'has to be loud'.
What ever happened to reaching for the volume control?
CD in the player... On you marks, get set to 0db, go -> cross the finish line at 0db with an average level of, you guessed it 0db.

BTW: Vinyl has a dynamic range of over 75db before surface noise becomes a problem. Direct Metal Mastering has increased the dynamic range again but I don't remember to what.

The point I was trying to make is that Vinyl/CD/SACD/2"Tape/1/4"tape/DVD Audio - or whatever medium one chooses all reproduce the audio that they are expected to. They all have their own inherent qualities and that determines the actual quality of sound to the listener. If vinyl was unable to reproduce the super compressed sound of modern cd masters it would fail as an end user medium. The only difference is that one has to limit/attenuate the signal to a vinyl master due to its physical limitations. There is after all only a 20 - 25db difference in the dynamic range between cd and vinyl.

Vinyl and Cd are both very adaquete media for commiting audio to. Neither of them are perfect neither of them are particularly shoddy. The super-loud master issue really isn't a new phenomenon at all- i think cutting engineers have always sought to make their cds louder than everyone elses. As to there being no dynamic range in cds from the last 5 years... You just must be listening to very loud music all the time - I have listened to many pieces of music from recent years where the quiet bits are quiet and the loud bits are loud. It's also arguable that increasing the apparent loudness of cds and vinyl alike only helps improve audio fidelity in terms of its dynamic range as all elements of the musical piece can be lifted away from whatever self-noise is inherent to the systems and media they employ - and as long as the dynamic shift is respected - well... great...

I still don't see what is wrong with making things as loud as loud can be - all that is needed is a little respect - as for the analog/digital debate - the old addage always holds true: sh1t in sh1t out...in both domains..

And finally... if vinyl won't reproduce any old rubbish it fails as a medium... it should simply reproduce what it told to

 

[aoboa]

The point I was trying to make is that Vinyl/CD/SACD/2"Tape/1/4"tape/DVD Audio - or whatever medium one chooses all reproduce the audio that they are expected to. They all have their own inherent qualities and that determines the actual quality of sound to the listener. If vinyl was unable to reproduce the super compressed sound of modern cd masters it would fail as an end user medium. The only difference is that one has to limit/attenuate the signal to a vinyl master due to its physical limitations. There is after all only a 20 - 25db difference in the dynamic range between cd and vinyl.

CD has it's limitations too in terms of reproduction. The only reason these super-compressed mastering techniques exist is because of the limitations of digital i.e. a ceiling of Odb max level that can not be crossed. Better to square wave the track with limiters than pass that threshold.

You have to limit/attenuate the signal to a CD master too - 0db limit.

Vinyl and Cd are both very adaquete media for commiting audio to. Neither of them are perfect neither of them are particularly shoddy. The super-loud master issue really isn't a new phenomenon at all- i think cutting engineers have always sought to make their cds louder than everyone elses. As to there being no dynamic range in cds from the last 5 years... You just must be listening to very loud music all the time - I have listened to many pieces of music from recent years where the quiet bits are quiet and the loud bits are loud. It's also arguable that increasing the apparent loudness of cds and vinyl alike only helps improve audio fidelity in terms of its dynamic range as all elements of the musical piece can be lifted away from whatever self-noise is inherent to the systems and media they employ - and as long as the dynamic shift is respected - well... great...

My problem is that in following this process the mastering engineers are destroying the source material. This form of processing results in audio peaks being square waved. Square waves where there originally were none is distortion - that's what a distortion pedal does: it square waves the output of your guitar. Regardless of dynamic range etc, this is not preserving the integrity of the original audio. It's not good for your ears and is certainly not good for your speakers.
Square waved peaks can rip speakers at high amplitudes as the driver tries to move fully in and then out in zero seconds leaving the cone behind.
Loud and well mastered is good.
Actively destroying audio just so it can be loud is bad.

I still don't see what is wrong with making things as loud as loud can be - all that is needed is a little respect - as for the analog/digital debate - the old addage always holds true: sh1t in sh1t out...in both domains..

True but the bar has been set now. You will see more and more of this carry on over the next few years.

And finally... if vinyl won't reproduce any old rubbish it fails as a medium... it should simply reproduce what it told to

Like I said at the start of this post. CD has similar limitations the result of which is what kicked this whole discussion off.

 

[RED(tape)MENACE]

http://www.prorec.com/prorec/articles.nsf/articles/8A133F52D0FD71AB86256C2E005DAF1C

http://www.mindspring.com/~mrichter/dynamics/dynamics.htm

 

[aoboa]

http://www.prorec.com/prorec/articles.nsf/articles/8A133F52D0FD71AB86256C2E005DAF1C

http://www.mindspring.com/~mrichter/dynamics/dynamics.htm

Great links... thanks.

 

[Goodbye]

Great thread... Learning loads thanks...

 

[RED(tape)MENACE]

Also :


www.loudnessrace.net

 

[moc]

So if most of the modern mastering houses really fuck up the mastering in the mid range can some one here recommend a decent place to go for mastering in Ireland?

I just ask because we're just about to record and want to get the best sound we can....

abbey road does mastering at 120 quid an hour. if you want to spend some money loike.

 

[snap-apple]

ok, riddle me this, and i'm making this up as i go along
but you're at a gig or night out right, and the band\music is really loud, like a normal night in whelans or the village or whatever, so it's loud enough that it takes a bit of getting used to but when you do it's got your attention and you're liking it.
now, see, the really loud thing right means that there's noise i.e. the sound is distorting or clipping or whatever as far as your ears are concerned but your brain is telling you that you like this over-loud sound.
now how would you reproduce that over-loudness on a recording?
what i'm asking is this: by ruining the dynamics and pumping everything up so that stuff is cut off are they actually mimicing what your ears detect at a loud gig?

 

[MDR]

This a great thread indeed. Makes me think Thumped is sane again.

 

[aoboa]

ok, riddle me this, and i'm making this up as i go along
but you're at a gig or night out right, and the band\music is really loud, like a normal night in whelans or the village or whatever, so it's loud enough that it takes a bit of getting used to but when you do it's got your attention and you're liking it.
now, see, the really loud thing right means that there's noise i.e. the sound is distorting or clipping or whatever as far as your ears are concerned but your brain is telling you that you like this over-loud sound.
now how would you reproduce that over-loudness on a recording?
what i'm asking is this: by ruining the dynamics and pumping everything up so that stuff is cut off are they actually mimicing what your ears detect at a loud gig?

The only way is to turn your stereo up really loud. You can't really replicate it on a recording.
Capturing the energy of a live band on a recording is the holy grail for engineers and bands alike.

 

[snap-apple]

The only way is to turn your stereo up really loud. You can't really replicate it on a recording.
Capturing the energy of a live band on a recording is the holy grail for engineers and bands alike.

but what i'm getting at is that what you hear at a live show is in parts an imperfect noisey version of the music - i.e. parts of it are too loud and are not processed properly by your ears but once you get used to it you can decipher what's going on.

so would a simliar representation on cd would be to push up all the quiet bits as loud as possible and then clip/limit the loud bits? (as well as cranking up the volume).

to put it another way. take one of the cd's that was mastered properly with no limiting and nice amount of headroom and dynamics etc. you can bet when that band played live it sounded alot more immediate and i'm wondering if this difference is caused by the live sound being slightly too loud at its maximum for your ears to process properly?

 

[aoboa]

but what i'm getting at is that what you hear at a live show is in parts an imperfect noisey version of the music - i.e. parts of it are too loud and are not processed properly by your ears but once you get used to it you can decipher what's going on.

so would a simliar representation on cd would be to push up all the quiet bits as loud as possible and then clip/limit the loud bits? (as well as cranking up the volume).

to put it another way. take one of the cd's that was mastered properly with no limiting and nice amount of headroom and dynamics etc. you can bet when that band played live it sounded alot more immediate and i'm wondering if this difference is caused by the live sound being slightly too loud at its maximum for your ears to process properly?

Yes: your brain adjusts your tolerance to the volume so that you can hear what's going on.
At a gig the dynamics of the music are normally preserved because little is compressed or limited. So, even though it's too loud it's still good audio (or should be).
If you want the same effect just turn up your stereo really loud. It'll have the effect you want. Setting a limiter to clip the signal peaks on a recording will only make the result sound terrible.

On the same subject:
I'm listening to the last Killing Joke album and without even taking a sample of the waveform I can tell that this album has been mastered to be extra loud. On one track in particular I can hear clipping where the vocal and snare hit together. It hurts my teeth!
Result: I can only listen to about three songs before I have to take a break.

 

[snap-apple]

Yes: your brain adjusts your tolerance to the volume so that you can hear what's going on. At a gig the dynamics of the music are normally preserved because little is compressed or limited. So, even though it's too loud it's still good audio (or should be).If you want the same effect just turn up your stereo really loud. It'll have the effect you want. Setting a limiter to clip the signal peaks on a recording will only make the result sound terrible.

On the same subject:
I'm listening to the last Killing Joke album and without even taking a sample of the waveform I can tell that this album has been mastered to be extra loud. On one track in particular I can hear clipping where the vocal and snare hit together. It hurts my teeth! Result: I can only listen to about three songs before I have to take a break.

i see i see. 'twas just a thought that occured to me as to why your average joe's teeth don't hurt. maybe non-audiophiles like having their heads bashed in, or maybe they tend not to listen to music for more than a half hour or so, or only listen to it on crappy radios that aren't turned up very loud. if noise (as in a noisey signal) is bad for your ears, is this super loud music bad for your ears also? even at a relatively normal volume? and tv and radio stations make stuff extra loud even if it isn't already, right? is that why my ears ring (more than usual) after flicking through the digimital tv music channels and listening to a couple of tunes? swines.

 

[aoboa]

i see i see. 'twas just a thought that occured to me as to why your average joe's teeth don't hurt. maybe non-audiophiles like having their heads bashed in, or maybe they tend not to listen to music for more than a half hour or so, or only listen to it on crappy radios that aren't turned up very loud. if noise (as in a noisey signal) is bad for your ears, is this super loud music bad for your ears also? even at a relatively normal volume? and tv and radio stations make stuff extra loud even if it isn't already, right? is that why my ears ring (more than usual) after flicking through the digimital tv music channels and listening to a couple of tunes? swines.

I was listening on headphones.
I reckon this particular album would make anyones teeth hurt.

 

[dudley]

my teeth are already quite sore. i assume this would be tortous for me???

 

[Pantone247]

On the same subject:
I'm listening to the last Killing Joke album and without even taking a sample of the waveform I can tell that this album has been mastered to be extra loud. On one track in particular I can hear clipping where the vocal and snare hit together. It hurts my teeth!
Result: I can only listen to about three songs before I have to take a break.

To be fair Andy gill's production on that record is totally fucked up. I could easily imagine that he demanded it be clipped during mastering (or tracking more likely) So many of the guitar sounds on it are just digital clipped signals... sort of like he deicded to 'voerdrive' protools like it was a tape deck. It's a really interesting record from that point of view, sounds like nothing else I've heard... but yeah way too harsh for prolonged listens.

On a similar note to Conor's point, about live sound clipping. Motorhead are able to get 185db of clean sound!! A guy I know followed them about a bit years ago and said it was insansity, but just shows you, in theroy you can produce clean non distorted sounds at insane volumes... yes your head will feel like it's melting... but the sound is still technically non distorted and clean.

 

[taubstumm]

To be fair Andy gill's production on that record is totally fucked up.

andy gill's production generally makes me feel very sad. this was the man behind entertainment, possibly the best debut album ever. then he goes and earns a fortune knob-twiddling for inxs and the like.

 

[guy of the tiger]

it's a pity the way it's become a standard prduction goal to have track/album volume as loud as possible at the expense of dynamic range. But having a huge rms really suits some music. Esp. Metal and harcore bands, also noise music and whathaveyou.
However they can do what they want with pop music (boyzone etc) for all I care becuase it really, really is bad these days. The louder it sounds on the radio the better it sells.

 

[aoboa]

To be fair Andy gill's production on that record is totally fucked up. I could easily imagine that he demanded it be clipped during mastering (or tracking more likely) So many of the guitar sounds on it are just digital clipped signals... sort of like he deicded to 'voerdrive' protools like it was a tape deck. It's a really interesting record from that point of view, sounds like nothing else I've heard... but yeah way too harsh for prolonged listens.

On a similar note to Conor's point, about live sound clipping. Motorhead are able to get 185db of clean sound!! A guy I know followed them about a bit years ago and said it was insansity, but just shows you, in theroy you can produce clean non distorted sounds at insane volumes... yes your head will feel like it's melting... but the sound is still technically non distorted and clean.

The production is amazing alright but torturous to listen to on headphones. Decent album too. At least half the tracks are good. Not a bad score these days

Clipping is a real no-no for live sound. Clipping enough of the signal at the desk or at the amps is a sure way to destroy speakers. Square wave the signal at high enough amplitude and the drivers leave the cones or at best will perforate or rip them. Seen it happen too many times, particularly with DJ's who think it's a good idea to turn everything on the mixer up full
A venue that's serious about sound will over spec their PA, particularly the amps for the size of the venue. This means you can have loud clear sound without having to over drive the amps.

 

[egg_]

Yes: your brain adjusts your tolerance to the volume so that you can hear what's going on

You sure about this?
There are physical limits to how much your eardrums and the little sound-sensitive hairs inside you ears can actually move, I would have thought, so if what you're listening to is loud enough you will get clipping in your ears, regardless of whether the source is clipped or not. I think you might be onto something there Conor