Levels (1 Viewer)

[Beanstalk]

I'm mixing a few tunes on cubase at the moment and need to know how to get the levels right. i.e. close to commercially recorded CDs, and acceptable for radioplay.

I've tried setting my Soundblaster card to "What U hear", playing the song in Cubase, while recording it in Cool Edit. Then doing the same with a commercially recorded CD, and comparing the waveforms. Doing this I find that even the commercial CD goes beyond the peaks.

I know I'm in the general ball park, but I find it hard judging discrete levels with my ears. Does anybody know of a good method for setting 'standard' levels, or perhaps a good spectral analysis plug-in/program?

 

[egg_]

I recommend that you get it mastered, Beanstalk. Talk to dubh and see if he'll do it for ya

This might give you some useful background information
http://www.thingsyouremissing.com/php/user_system.php?action=view_resource&resource_id=210

 

[dubh in seattle]

YEAH Beanstalk! send it to me!!!

Ah, egg me ould china... thanks for the referral. Yeha, beaners, the whole issue of levels is one of those sliding puzzles...and often there is tenuous connection between 'level' and 'perceived loudness,' since we hear different frequencies with different acuity. Do a net search on the "Fletcher-Munson Curve" for details. The basic thing (which you seem fully aware of) is NEVER to clip, or more realistically never clip more than a couple consecutive samples (ie, less than a milisecond). When you xfer the commercially recorded cd, is it a digital extraction vs. running thru analog inputs? If the comm cd is showing clips on the meters, that's a drag cos duplicators won't dupe a cd with ANY overs, meaning the meters are screwy (same with ProTools, my tool of choice since '92, so I use either SpectrFoo plugin meters or Dorrough vu/peak meters) So the deal is to keep the average level over time as high as you can WITHOUT crushing it so it has no dynamics (like 99% of 'commercial' modern music on the radio/tv). There are a buncha ways to get the average level LOUD without killing the dynamics, selective eq and compression are your best friends-besides a mastering engineer >; ). When you mix, in almost every case you can high pass (low-cut)eq lots more stuff than seems rational! Like, electric guitar has a fundamental lowest frequency of 160 Hz (bottom E), so often you can whack everything below that pretty sharp without actually hearing a difference in the overall mix; if you have it soloed you may hear it, but less low frequency content on guitar (or whatever) will give the bass and kik drum more room in the spectrum. Bass guit low E has a fundamental of 80Hz, and since its lower harmonics become quickly indistinct below that, I'll often whack it around 60. the main 'melodic' content we think of as bass pretty much goes from 70-125±Hz, I personally usually shoot for the kik having the lowest frequency excursion; I might lo-pass/hi-cut the kik around 40Hz. Just for comparison, the lowest note on an 88 key piano has a fundamental freq of 27.5Hz.And if you have as much 27Hz as 80Hz in a mix, it'll rob headroom from the overall level without any real gain in 'bigness.' Also, with too much low freq phasing and intermodulation become more noticeable...Using selective compression(a whole long treatise unto
itself 8>) ) to keep the peaks from too much overshoot will work wonders. Be aware that compression attack and release times can and do radically change the behavior and sound of a compressor; if you use anything shorter than say 25 milisec attack on a kik or bassy track, it'll make your beautiful track into a sludgy morass, likely. The 'bigtime' records do benefit from huge average level; many don't stray more than 3 or 4 dB from their absolute loudest to quietest passage, which makes them sound LOUD but then there's no sense of dynamics at all--LAME. I'm mastering some stuff for Dudley Corp; they're a great example of dynamics. The tracks will be LOUD, but through various tomfoolery I'm striving not to compromise the overall dynamics. If you wanna hear before and after, message Dudley (he's on tour, but checking his email I think), and ask him to email me if it's okay to send you a link where I'll post it for you. If you'd like me to master yer tracks (a single or ep...but I'm very flexible), I'm offering to master stuff free for my Thumped kin til I get over to Ireland-- probably mid-Oct. I've talked to so many COOL fekn people here! I engineer and produce, will be available for very reasonable rates, just want to work in Ireland! I've got lots of examples you can hear. PM or email me if yer interested in mastering or mixing-- I'll send you a thing stating I have no claim or financial lien on the songs when I'm done. God, I've written a tolstoy epic here! Not even sure if I provided anything useful for ya-- the best metering/spectral analysis tool available is SpectraFoo, www.mhlabs.com
good luck-
dubh.|..|

 

[Beanstalk]

Cheers Dubh, thanks for the advice...I've only been at this home recording malarky since the start of the year but I understand most of what you're saying...especially about not allowing certain instruments to overcrowd the mix in certain frequency ranges...and the pros and cons to compression...I'd like my mix to be radio friendly, but at the same time the songs rely heavily on dynamics so I wouldn't want to sacrifice that power.

I should be finished mixing these 4 songs in 2 or 3 weeks...It would be deadly if you could master them. I was going to attempt to master it myself using Ozone Izotope or T-racks software, but I think I've heard them so often now that I have lost perspective of levels, so having someone else with your experience involved would be class.

I'll give you a shout at [email protected] next week when I the end of the mixing is in sight!


Cheers,
Beany.

 

[dubh in seattle]

sweet! let's do it!

Exxxxxcellent. Home recording is a deep deadly addiction, innit? The most fun you can have with yer pants on. And, you can even do it pantsless ; ) My studio partner and I joke about how heroin addiction would've been cheaper to get into! Have you heard Dudley Corp? I'm really digging doing their stuff--very dynamic, cool tonal contrasts, good songs(the most important thing!) If I remember correctly, you can get a demo version of SpectraFoo for mac or pc. The "spectragraph" I use constantly. The more you use it, the more useful it becomes. What's yer band called? Also, if you could send me 24bit WAV files as a cd-rom, that's best for mastering. And if ya wanna, send me the raw tracks on rom and I'd mix a song for ya as well, just for fun. I love doing this! Thumped pretty much kicks all ass.
best-
dubh.|..| .|..| .|..|
oh- my postal is

Black
2859 nw 56th st
Seattle, WA 98107

 

[Beanstalk]

Dubh, the name of my band is Obsolete...we have a website but its been down for a while...the new songs are pretty much rock/indie type stuff...a lot of dynamics and stop/start stuff thrown in for good measure...and nice melodies of course.

Would it be good enough to send you stereo wav files in 16 bit on a CD, as this is the format I recorded in? I could send you all the individual wav files for each song put I don't want to waste your time mixing it, (besides, the start of each wav will not all line up, unless I insert some 'space' in some of the tracks, if you know what I mean).

Cool...I must get my ass into gear and get a final mix done!

 

[dubh in seattle]

Hey Herr Beanstalker-
Yeah, 16 b wav's would be fine, could you send it as cd-rom data as opposed to audio cd-r? If not, no biggie. If you wanna make the effort to make all tracks of a multitracked song start at zero(all the same time), I'd love to mix a tune for ya.
You go mix now!!! did I give you my postal?
&.|..| til you!bog ,
dubh

 

[Beanstalk]

Originally posted by dubh in seattle
If you wanna make the effort to make all tracks of a multitracked song start at zero(all the same time), I'd love to mix a tune for ya

Ah sure why not...its probably good practice to do this at the end of every mix anyway...shouldn't take too long.


I'll whisk it off to...

c/o Dubh,
Black,
2859 nw 56th st.,
Seattle,
WA 98107.

 

[dubh in seattle]

sweeeeet..|..|

 

[Beanstalk]

pm'd ya there Dubh...