Let's have a debate about immigration (2 Viewers)

[egg_]

Seeing as the media is letting us down, let's have one ourselves, and then jane can talk about it on Ryan Tubridy or something

I'm fairly pro-immigration, based on the idea that I think I myself should be allowed go wherever the fuck I want, and so I'd be inclined to think that probably everybody else should be allowed to do the same

Oh the other hand ... I think what makes Ireland (or pretty much any Western country) a desirable place to live is the social contract that has evolved here - I dunno if that's exactly the right term, but what I mean is if you run a business or get a job here and get a bit of money together it's unlikely that a crime boss or corrupt politician or other Bad Guy is going to take it from you. The social contract that allows your local supermarket to have goods on display and undefended without the place being cleaned out, and allows a small farmer to own a few cows without the local bigshot running him off his land, and stops the government bulldozing your house to build an army base. Know what I mean?

We've all been trained to abide by our own social contract since birth, but our kind of contract doesn't exist everywhere, and therefore immigrants from some cultures have quite different social training than ours. If we had a real open-door policy, then it's conceivable that we might run the risk of jeopardising our social contract by having too many people living here who don't subscribe to it, and therefore ruining what it is that makes Ireland a more desirable place to live (for many people) than, say, Sudan.

What think ye? I genuinely don't give a flying fuck about nationality or race or religion or even much about culture, but I suspect civilisation is a delicate thing. How to protect it? Not by keeping people out, I think, or some stupid test to make foreigners into culshies, but by some kind of proper measures to acculturate immigrants - maybe a kind of foster-family or mentor arrangement, where foreign families are assigned an Irish family to help them settle in

 

[magicbastarder]

i don't think you should be allowed in until you can identify all irish flora and fauna.

 

[broken arm]

social contract is a term that will always relate value to financial worth......

on the other side some leading free-marketeers suggest that immigration is open to the same forces as the market e.g. if there is sufficient resource to pass around the people will come. if a country starts to run out of the resources the people won't come. therefore the only reasons for intervention are greed, or racism.

 

[therealjohnny]

So long as you love Jesus and can sing the national anthem as gaelige you're alright by me.


And you must be white also.

 

[pete]

So long as you love Jesus and can sing the national anthem as gaelige you're alright by me.


And you must be white also.

and you can't be poor.

or richer than me.

 

[jane]

I don't know about 'foster families', but there is a mentoring programme already in existence for asylum seeker young people who are 'transitioning' (i.e., being chucked out) of HSE care and placed into RIA accommodation.

There do exist a lot of fantastic programmes to help with transitions, integration, and community involvement, but they're underfunded, underresourced, and not as well-acknowledged as they should be. These are the community groups that are the lifeline for a lot of foreign people, as are churches and other religious groups (which, regardless of anyone's feelings on religion, these can be very strong and positive communities).

The problem is that the policy doesn't match the needs and wishes of the various communities. At the level of the small groups, the NGOs, all that, there's a real sense that people should have the same rights. You don't want to find out that your friends don't have the same right of self-determination you do, because it's tough to have a close friendship with someone who is not able to be your equal. The policies necessary to make happy, healthy communities, are ones that look after everyone's needs, regardless of national origin.

The immigration policy, I think, is a consequence of the government treating *everyone*, Irish or foreign-born, as an economic unit, it happens to be playing out very differently for those of us who, when we lose our economic funciton, we lose our right to the lives we've made here. The politicians act as an employment agency for corporate giants, and quite happily. I actually think the immigration policy is a consequence of that, and that if we really want to get to the heart of the issue, we need to look at the real fundamental direction of and relationship between the Irish government's policies and the communities we live in. One thing you've said really concisely, Egg, is 'I want to live in a society, not an economy' or something like that. To me, that's what I see as the real root of it.

What we all have in common as inhabitants of this island is that we'll all be happier if we refuse to be reduced to economic units.

I can't go on and talk abotu immigration publicly! My lawyer says I shouldn't ruffle any feathers. And that's one of the other issues: the people for whom these issues are so important, and so immediately crucial are not really able to speak out, even if we're unafraid to speak out about every other issue under the sun.

 

[therealjohnny]

and you can't be poor.

or richer than me.

No sick people either

 

[pete]

No sick people either

oh, definitely no sick people.

and i'd prefer if they used a proper alphabet too.

 

[therealjohnny]

And must they talk in those ridiculous accents?

 

[jane]

Whatever is done, don't do what they've fucking done in my country. The Irish government got a bit of respite from my rage this morning when I saw this fucking bullshit from my government:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21019797/from/ET/

Shameful. Seriously, most Americans can't answer these questions, which means "It's one law for us, and much tougher rules for the rest of 'em." Immigration systems should stop being so goddamn narcissistic. you can be effective, strong, and resolute without the sort of 'love it or leave it' arrogance you get in ignorant Americans who conveniently forget that 95% of Americans are 'immigrants'.

 

[Denny Oubidoux]

you're wrecking it lads

 

[beattre]

No sick people either

But is Donegal really part of Ireland?

 

[pete]

And must they talk in those ridiculous accents?

no beards or funny hats.

 

[ITalkShite]

Oh hi Jane. I didn't know you had any particular opinions about this whole matter.

 

[therealjohnny]

unless you're an adorable elfin Nazi

 

[jane]

Oh hi Jane. I didn't know you had any particular opinions about this whole matter.

Ireland for the Irish, like.

johnnystress, you posted the wrong elfin Nazi!

 

[ITalkShite]

unless you're an adorable elfin Nazi

Bloody Russians

 

[broken arm]

No sick people either

what about siiiiick people?

 

[ITalkShite]

Ireland for the Irish, like.

Ireland for the Bolivians

 

[Popeye]

culture isn't something you can acculturate, as you put it. cultures evolve and falling into the same trap the British did would be a disaster. They started faffing about with the whole "who are we?", "what does it mean to be British?" etcetera.

Can you imagine Irish politicans and civic personnel doing the same?

It would be a nightmare mix of riverdance kitch, tourist brochure bollocks and hollywood beggorah.

I'm actually shocked that people are still shocked about immigration. I cringe when I read or hear irish people talking about it. It's as if they never left their fecking villages and only took a break from dancing at the crossroads for a few minutes just to bitch about them blow ins.

anyone know a great Irish traditional song called: Nigerians (Stop giving out about)?