Ireland (10 Viewers)

[egg_]

He beat a random woman until she was unconscious, that qualifies as actually dangerous. That’s life changing stuff for a victim, you don’t get the privilege of stopping your own life from being changed because you’re “of good character” or “show promise” in your job. I’m sorry but I’m not going to feel sad about someone losing their job over something like this.

Again - I'm not defending the guy, just trying to understand why the courts found as they did. This guy's life will be dramatically changed by what he did - I understand that you feel that it's not going to be changed enough, but let's not pretend that a conviction for assault doesn't have repercussions for the rest of your life

I presume the law approaches it this way thinking "maybe he'll cop himself on after this". Do people cop themselves on after an assault conviction, and not re-offend? I don't know, but I'd say you don't know either, and perhaps the courts do know

 

[magicbastarder]

let's not pretend that a conviction for assault doesn't have repercussions for the rest of your life

again;

Naval Service officer still serving despite guilty plea in violent attack on former girlfriend

David O’Gorman was involved in a serious assault in Limerick in 2020

www.irishtimes.com

 

[Deadmanposting]

Jees Louise

He was described in a court as an accomplished heavyweight boxer on the Naval Service boxing team.....
The court heard how an argument about walking the dog culminated in an attack that left the victim with a fractured eye socket and bruising to her face and body. She required reconstruction surgery and was left with a scar and her eye in a changed position.
These are the lads that need to be talking about their feelings

 

[nuke terrorist]

An off duty Garda beat up a male stranger on a night out in Cork city.
After his 2011 sentencing the Garda's solicitor successfully argued he shouldn't serve a prison sentence because as a Garda he would be in danger. The judge suspended the whole 18 months after initially suspending 12 months.

Garda has entire assault sentence suspended

A garda, who was convicted of assault yesterday, walked free today after a Circuit Court Judge in Cork revised his 18-month prison sentence.

www.rte.ie

 

[Cornu Ammonis]

@Cornu Ammonis I'm not defending anyone, I'm trying to take what has happened and see if I can use it to understand our culture better. I feel like you're arguing with something I didn't say

I don’t think I am.

See where I said "regardless of the harm done"? I'm not making an argument or a judgment, just what I think is a reasonable observation about Irish (or maybe human) culture. I may be wrong, but if I am what you have written doesn't show me how

You asked why do we think and I pointed out why - violence against women is disproportionately performed by men who are culturally, physically, and psychologically more aggressive, stronger, and bigger. It’s not a fair fight. This is almost universal across mammals, presence of a Y chromosome is one of the strongest and most consistent genetic predictors of behaviour. And in this case, the behaviours are aggression and impulsivity.

Again - I'm not defending the guy, just trying to understand why the courts found as they did. This guy's life will be dramatically changed by what he did - I understand that you feel that it's not going to be changed enough, but let's not pretend that a conviction for assault doesn't have repercussions for the rest of your life

It’s not the question of changing it “enough”, it’s the idea that you do something life changing to someone else, then you can’t really get upset if your life changes because of it. The whole point of the judicial system is meant to be a deterrent, don’t do something bad or else bad things happen to you. (And whether that works or not is obviously a whole other argument.) What makes his life special over hers? Or some other person convicted of the same crime but they’re unemployed and don’t have a career?

I presume the law approaches it this way thinking "maybe he'll cop himself on after this". Do people cop themselves on after an assault conviction, and not re-offend? I don't know, but I'd say you don't know either, and perhaps the courts do know

I don’t know but generally aggression is a trait behaviour rather than a one and done behaviour.

Interestingly, the hospitalisation rates are higher for men than women. I was wondering about that but bear in mind, it takes two men to fight and there’s going to be a lot of cases where one aggressor means two people go to hospital if the victim fights back and rates of women starting fights with other women or with men are much much lower.

 

[Cornu Ammonis]

I mean I think there should be special protections for women in law, but the current vogue is to remove special mentions of women and mothers from law.

The words 'woman' and 'mother' were removed from the Pregnancy Leave Act and the Free Period Products Act bills and replaced with 'someone', 'everyone' and 'people'.

The same reason women want special protection in law from being beaten up is the same one they don't want men in their prisons and abuse shelters and doing their rape kits.

I don’t really follow, women don’t need special protection under the law if the current legal system actually examines its own standards - good boys with promising careers and no (legally recorded) history of violence should not be getting the soft treatment.

The thing about that is he's literally trained to beat up randomers for no fucking reason. That's the meat that goes in the grinder like.

Big asterisk on that, I know, and I'd say a few of you know people who are trained fighters and literally would destroy most normal people ina few seconds. these people tend to be the first to jump off into a taxi when trouble is brewing. This kid is using his training on innnocent people.

Anywhoo the best thing that can happen for the country is that it isn't tolerated as it has been and that lady gets to a place where she hasn't just been randomly fucked over for being sound.

Two guys from my friend circle are both ex-military (one Irish defense forces, the other Tan) and they’re exactly as you describe. This guy wasn’t a threat because he was a soldier (though it does make him more dangerous as he knows how to fight) but because he has no self-discipline to not do something horrific.

 

[egg_]

You asked why do we think and I pointed out why - violence against women is disproportionately performed by men who are culturally, physically, and psychologically more aggressive, stronger, and bigger. It’s not a fair fight

So you reckon if someone attacked me out of the blue and (for example) fractured my skull people would think that'd be worse than the exact same happening to (for example) @Deadmanposting because he's big and I'm not? It's not just about the suffering of the victim, how much of a perceived chance they had of defending themselves is also taken into account, whether or not that defence was successful?

Hmm ... yeah I guess that's plausible

It’s not the question of changing it “enough”, it’s the idea that you do something life changing to someone else, then you can’t really get upset if your life changes because of it. The whole point of the judicial system is meant to be a deterrent, don’t do something bad or else bad things happen to you. (And whether that works or not is obviously a whole other argument.) What makes his life special over hers?

Most people see a suspended sentence as "getting off scot free", but after hearing that legal analyst I've realised that it's not. Imagine how your own life would change if you were convicted of assault, especially if your victim was a woman - everyone you know is gonna turn their back on you, and you're never again gonna be able get a job where they do a background check or where anybody has heard of you. That is a bad thing happening to you.

If you think that's insufficient that's fair enough, but you must acknowledge that suspended sentence is a significant consequence

I don’t know but generally aggression is a trait behaviour rather than a one and done behaviour.

Indeed, but whether that aggression manifests in violence is a different thing - if it always did then surely the guy would have come to the attention fo the law before the age of 22

 

[dudley]

Most people see a suspended sentence as "getting off scot free", but after hearing that legal analyst I've realised that it's not. Imagine how your own life would change if you were convicted of assault, especially if your victim was a woman - everyone you know is gonna turn their back on you, and you're never again gonna be able get a job where they do a background check or where anybody has heard of you. That is a bad thing happening to you.

If you think that's insufficient that's fair enough, but you must acknowledge that suspended sentence is a significant consequence

This is a different problem again, I think, and maybe specific to violent crime. We have a huge social tolerance for violence in this country. In some circles, like this guys, the *bants* were on his social media about how hilarious it was, his family have come out blaming the media, he received exemplary character references from his employers (which is something we've seen happen in a ton of other cases of assault in this country), far right arseholes are saying it was Natasha's fault for getting involved in the first place. Socially, everything is moving to absolve him of fault, and I don't think he will find people turning their backs on him. Like the naval officer case mentioned above, I can quite easily believe he will be able to move in his career and life with little consequence from this suspended sentence. Which is wrong. His life should be forever changed as a consequence of beating another human into unconsciousness.

 

[magicbastarder]

so according to the latest report in the IT, a suspended sentence is *not* automatic grounds for dismissal from the armed forces; a custodial sentence is, though. apparently there was an emergency pow-wow to try to get a handle on this issue, including a scramble to find out how often this has happened.

 

[egg_]

Socially, everything is moving to absolve him of fault, and I don't think he will find people turning their backs on him

There are people out protesting in the streets to say he should be in jail, and you think everything is moving to absolve him?

 

[dudley]

There are people out protesting in the streets to say he should be in jail, and you think everything is moving to absolve him?

Yep, as I said in his social circle. I'd love to be wrong

 

[egg_]

I guess this stuff is find-out-able? Not sure where you'd look though ... @ann post your investigative skills might be useful here, is there anyplace one might find examples of how people's lives have gone after an assault conviction when they hadn't been "known to the gardaí" beforehand?

 

[dudley]

Interesting to see Simon Harris this morning infer there's a culture of covering up such violence in the Defense Forces.

I want to know how many other people are hiding, hiding with convictions in relation to domestic, sexual or gender-based violence. They have no place, absolutely no place, in our Defense Forces.

 

[therealjohnny]

Interesting to see Simon Harris this morning infer there's a culture of covering up such violence in the Defense Forces.

Its a known fact the army is full of wronguns

Women of Honour - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Reets]

Most people see a suspended sentence as "getting off scot free", but after hearing that legal analyst I've realised that it's not. Imagine how your own life would change if you were convicted of assault, especially if your victim was a woman - everyone you know is gonna turn their back on you, and you're never again gonna be able get a job where they do a background check or where anybody has heard of you. That is a bad thing happening to you.

If you think that's insufficient that's fair enough, but you must acknowledge that suspended sentence is a significant consequence

No, I absolutely do not need to need to acknowledge that it is a significant consequence because it isn't.
Losing his job and having a tranished reputation is the lowest consequences he should be facing, and he might not even get that.

A friend was drinking in Nancy Blakes over the weekend, it's a really nice pub in Limerick city and has a (normally) decent crowd. A friend of hers turned a guy down who was hitting on her, and his response while walking away was "two to put you down".

Also over the weekend, another friends little sister was beaten to a bloody pulp by her boyfriend. Luckily for her a neighbour spotted what was going on and he was able to get her out of there. She's gone to the police and had to get a restraining order from Dolphin House. The Guards have since misplaced this order so she's to get another one. In the meantime, he's calling her from blocked numbers and said he will "burn her out", which he's also calling another ex and mother of his child and saying the exact same thing. They've gone to the station together sa they both fear for their lives and the guy hasnt been charged.

There is a different power dynamic between men being assulted by men and women being assaulted by men, there simply is. Both are bad, but one is more likely to die than the other.

 

[rettucs]

Most people see a suspended sentence as "getting off scot free", but after hearing that legal analyst I've realised that it's not. Imagine how your own life would change if you were convicted of assault, especially if your victim was a woman - everyone you know is gonna turn their back on you, and you're never again gonna be able get a job where they do a background check or where anybody has heard of you. That is a bad thing happening to you.

Is this as a result of getting a suspended sentence, or as a result of everyone knowing he's a cowardly scumbag?

A suspended sentence isn't worth a damn. If it was we'd never hear of news stories where people are known to gardai and have 30 previous convictions.

Hopefully all of the things above come to pass for the prick. But he needs to be locked up to do some hard thinking.

 

[GARYXKNIFEDX]

And then all the cases that don't get reported,because nothing will be done.
I wonder how many there are?

 

[ann post]

I guess this stuff is find-out-able? Not sure where you'd look though ... @ann post your investigative skills might be useful here, is there anyplace one might find examples of how people's lives have gone after an assault conviction when they hadn't been "known to the gardaí" beforehand?

I don't know where to start because i wouldn't have time this week - an obvoius enough line on this though is looking at how much reoffending happens if someone does go to prison, which i think is pretty established. But I have minus levels time to a deep dive on anything this week thanks to LCDC.

 

[taubstumm]

you must acknowledge that suspended sentence is a significant consequence

on the one hand, it is a significant consequence when compared to an alternative, which is... doing nothing at all.

on the other hand, it is not a significant consequence when compared to the demands of justice. it is an extremely lenient and, ultimately, socially-negligent decision. the guy should be, at the very least, behind bars for a long time. even that seems inadequate because jail will quite possibly simply reinforce all of this guy’s worst instincts.

 

[magicbastarder]

has there been an upswing in violence in the last few years? the press is awash with stories of ireland being awash with coke; and you'd wonder if that's playing a part in cases like this.