Ireland (18 Viewers)

[JohnnyRaz]

Wouldn't be a counter if the rates are higher though. Data might be available at https://data.cso.ie/ (can't check it myself rn)

They've (minister for justice) stated that there is no basis for the claims that there's higher crime rates w/ migrants.. if that's so I'm not sure why they don't share the data... *

(*not saying it isn't true, or that there's a big conspiracy or something beyond the usual shite communications & management of this whole area by the govt.)

 

[nuke terrorist]

Is there any chance men could stop being pricks?

I never see leftwing men kick up about rape except in service to other leftwing causes, though. Curiously similar to how rightwing men only care about rape when it supports their personal politics.

never had a girlfriend in my life. it was for the best.

 

[egg_]

They've (minister for justice) stated that there is no basis for the claims that there's higher crime rates w/ migrants.. if that's so I'm not sure why they don't share the data...

Perhaps what she means by "no basis" is "we don't collect the data"

 

[JohnnyRaz]

Perhaps what she means by "no basis" is "we don't collect the data"

aye - no evidence to confirm, but no data to refute.

 

[Deadmanposting]

it is men, specifically though. I think its a fair cop. If there are some pricks creating a narrative that there's a particularly high crime rate among our male immigrant community, then calling bullshit on that by pointing out that Irish men are worse, seems fair enough.

But it's not that at all.
It's these anecdotal instances of sex crimes that prove nothing at all.

These lads are preying on a natural fear people have, particularly after some high profile cases.
It is a wedge they can get purchase on with the public at large.
The counter to that isn't "well it's already awful so what are you worried about?"

It doesn't answer or allay the fear people have, and you've lost some of them to the loonies cos they're actually listening to those fears. Not that they care, but because it suits them.

The conversation should be with reasonable people who are afraid of these groups of immigrant men.
Recognising and accepting that the fear exists, that it's natural (cos men are a fucking horror show) and talking through it.

It's either true or it's not that immigrants commit more crime.
We can want it to be one thing or the other, but it's only one thing.


And I'm not necessarily talking about these individual posts on thumped. Just the overall tone of the debate in Ireland. And how people reassure themselves with these things when they're actually meaningless.
One crowd yelling "black people are dangerous" and the other shouting back "Well white poeple suck too" is such a fucking waste of time.

 

[Deadmanposting]

Perhaps what she means by "no basis" is "we don't collect the data"

aye - no evidence to confirm, but no data to refute.

Yeah, I don't think it's tracked.
Or if they're even allowed to.

 

[JohnnyRaz]

Yeah, I don't think it's tracked.
Or if they're even allowed to.

Mightn't be tracked at the level of 'ethnicity' for want of a better word, but they would presumably have records relating to the persons citizenship status etc. as part of their overall paperwork.

 

[nuke terrorist]

Being scared of foreign men and not Irish men is racist.
That can't be ignored when talking to unreasonable people

 

[ernesto]

I

But it's not that at all.
It's these anecdotal instances of sex crimes that prove nothing at all.

These lads are preying on a natural fear people have, particularly after some high profile cases.
It is a wedge they can get purchase on with the public at large.
The counter to that isn't "well it's already awful so what are you worried about?"

It doesn't answer or allay the fear people have, and you've lost some of them to the loonies cos they're actually listening to those fears. Not that they care, but because it suits them.

The conversation should be with reasonable people who are afraid of these groups of immigrant men.
Recognising and accepting that the fear exists, that it's natural (cos men are a fucking horror show) and talking through it.

It's either true or it's not that immigrants commit more crime.
We can want it to be one thing or the other, but it's only one thing.


And I'm not necessarily talking about these individual posts on thumped. Just the overall tone of the debate in Ireland. And how people reassure themselves with these things when they're actually meaningless.
One crowd yelling "black people are dangerous" and the other shouting back "Well white poeple suck too" is such a fucking waste of time.

Dunno I think it's a good argument;

'immigrants are regular people. As are the people already here, so the crime rate reflects that'

 

[Deadmanposting]

Being scared of foreign men and not Irish men is racist.

Women are scared (for want of a better word) of Irish men.
But it's a situation they live with and have adjusted to. It's the devil/hell/horror they know and have to live with while things improve at a glacial pace.
A bunch of unknown (for want of a better word) men from different cultures being added in, can bring additional fears.
"I just got used to staying alive among this set of utter pricks, and now what, more pricks??"

Maybe that is racist, but it's also human.

We can talk about it, or we can call these people racists. Which is a win for racists.



But I think you hit the absolute nub of it here. A lot of people on the left are tryingto be the least racist they can possibly be, rather than working toward an immigration policy that works for everyone.

 

[Deadmanposting]

'immigrants are regular people. As are the people already here, so the crime rate reflects that'

Sure, but no one's making that argument.

Hey with this immigration, there'll be some economic advantages, a broadening of the culture, pressure on housing, additional crime. Are we cool with all that?

People either say/ignore the first two or the second two, depending on what they want to be true.
And we get division in society as a result of immigration, cos we can't debate properly.

 

[nuke terrorist]

Women are scared (for want of a better word) of Irish men.
But it's a situation they live with and have adjusted to. It's the devil/hell/horror they know and have to live with while things improve at a glacial pace.
A bunch of unknown (for want of a better word) men from different cultures being added in, can bring additional fears.
"I just got used to staying alive among this set of utter pricks, and now what, more pricks??"

Maybe that is racist, but it's also human.

We can talk about it, or we can call these people racists. Which is a win for racists.

By all means be very concerned about how women are treated by men but racism is a different issue.
You've used terms like "reasonable" and "natural" in previous posts to describe fears that bring anti immigrant stuff into the sexual violence and domestic abuse debate.
Some of the language you used doesn't help - that is all I am saying.

 

[egg_]

If immigrants are mostly men then that by itself means it pushes up the violent crime rate, because most violent crimes are commited by men. No racism needed

edit: fwiw I don't think that should be a reason to not have immigration, and I personally feel pretty weird about the "men are bad" sentiment that's coming out of all this

 

[Deadmanposting]

By all means be very concerned about how women are treated by men but racism is a different issue.
You've used terms like "reasonable" and "natural" in previous posts to describe fears that bring anti immigrant stuff into the sexual violence and domestic abuse debate.
Some of the language you used doesn't help - that is all I am saying.

You're saying people aren't afraid of Irish men. They are.

The fear exists, otherwise these pricks at the dump wouldn't be yelling about it.
They're not noble truth tellers, they just recognise a pressure point.

They're speaking to people's real fears, while the left are calling them racist for having such fears.
That's how you lose.

Deal with the anxiety people have without calling them bigots.
Or that's what I think we should do.

 

[ann post]

edit: fwiw I don't think that should be a reason to not have immigration, and I personally feel pretty weird about the "men are bad" sentiment that's coming out of all this

some of my best friends are men

 

[Deadmanposting]

some of my best friends are men

We're just normal men, Ann

 

[Kermit McDermott]

Everyone has some degree of prejudice.
Whether they admit it or not.

 

[ernesto]

Sure, but no one's making that argument.

Hey with this immigration, there'll be some economic advantages, a broadening of the culture, pressure on housing, additional crime. Are we cool with all that?

People either say/ignore the first two or the second two, depending on what they want to be true.
And we get division in society as a result of immigration, cos we can't debate properly.

I am making that argument against the notion that we are letting in ‘violent ‘fighting-age rapists’. I have to occasionally work with a lot of knuckle-staggers and I hear a lot of bigoted bullshit

 

[nuke terrorist]

You're saying people aren't afraid of Irish men. They are.

The fear exists, otherwise these pricks at the dump wouldn't be yelling about it.
They're not noble truth tellers, they just recognise a pressure point.

They're speaking to people's real fears, while the left are calling them racist for having such fears.
That's how you lose.

Deal with the anxiety people have without calling them bigots.
Or that's what I think we should do.

I never said Irish lads aren't dangerous.
Those who think that foreign lads are more dangerous than Irish lads are factually wrong. There is no evidence of this.
This idea should not be perpetuated.

 

[JohnnyRaz]

Sure, but no one's making that argument.

Hey with this immigration, there'll be some economic advantages, a broadening of the culture, pressure on housing, additional crime. Are we cool with all that?

People either say/ignore the first two or the second two, depending on what they want to be true.
And we get division in society as a result of immigration, cos we can't debate properly.

the housing pressure is a relatively straightforward argument - more people with a (relatively static) number of available houses etc. creates pressure on housing - even if we didn't have a housing crisis.

the 'additional crime' piece is a stickier one, it only makes sense to speak of this in relative terms (i.e is are proportionally more immigrants involved in crime that the general population), and even then there's a lot of other factors. as we've been discussing, there doesn't appear to be readily available data on this.