International women's day (2 Viewers)

[jane]

damn i knew id come across wrong here....
my point is,yeah yr a woman,mr x over there is black and the bloke beside him is gay.fair enough,its not any of my business so dont shove it in my face,see?
and as for white mans day,id start one but why?im a white male,so what..

No one is shoving it in your face. You're the one who brought it up. Until people stop making a big deal out of other people's interest in their own identities, and their own roles within society, and until people stop making a huge fuss over someone else's desire to be heard and seen from their own particular perspective, we are not equal. And until people like you stop thinking they can call time on equality just because they're bored with all the talk, we are not equal. Try going to Bangladesh and telling the 400 women a month who are trafficked into slavery in Pakistan, that society sees them as equal -- their enslavement is their own damn fault.

I'm sorry you feel so oppressed by women's interest in talking about issues that are important for women. Maybe if wider society were interested in talking about these things, we wouldn't need something like International Women's Day, but sadly, we do.

 

[тхеодоре кацзынски]

oh please yr almost accusing me of being racist here.im tryna say if there was a white equivalent itd be slammed as racist,if there was an international mans day itd be slammed as chauvinistic,straight pride wiould be homophobic.
see my point?

 

[тхеодоре кацзынски]

and i appreciate some people are not seen as equal,i said I see people that way.

 

[ITalkShite]

oh please yr almost accusing me of being racist here.im tryna say if there was a white equivalent itd be slammed as racist,if there was an international mans day itd be slammed as chauvinistic,straight pride wiould be homophobic.
see my point?

An alternative point to make would be this: If you haven't a clue about something, don't go shooting your mouth off about it.

 

[jane]

and i appreciate some people are not seen as equal,i said I see people that way.

Obviously you don't see people that way. If you saw people as free and equal, then you would understand that they are free to have these kinds of festivals, celebrations and cultural/racial/social/gender discussions. But you don't.

I understand that there is a white male malaise that is a response to these examinations of non-straight-white-middle-class-male issues, and of course, it does need to be addressed. But just as black people, women, gay people, etc, have engaged in self-examination in order to better understand their present roles and contributions in society, and in order to look at where they/we would like to be, so, then, should the white males who feel so repressed.

As a matter of fact, in case you were interested, there is actually quite a lot of writing on masculinity, and on what it means to be a male in society. Some of it's being done in the gender studies departments that often used to be called women's studies. Fancy that.

Funnily enough -- shock horror -- some of my own research deals with the construction of masculinity, and on understanding some of its complexities, rather than treating it as a default. On actually looking at the sociopolitical pressures that were related to the concepts of 'masculinity'.

So despite your protests, people are not trying to take away your past or your present, or whatever power you do or don't have.

 

[тхеодоре кацзынски]

a clue about what?jeez yr all getting seriously worked up here and missing the point of my argument.

 

[jane]

a clue about what?jeez yr all getting seriously worked up here and missing the point of my argument.

Could you re-state the point, then? Because I think we're all addressing your point as best we can. Unfortunately, you just keep repeating "everyone is equal in my eyes, except the people who want to talk about inequality". Or something to that effect. So everyone is equal who is willing to sit down and shut up. Works for me!

 

[тхеодоре кацзынски]

Obviously you don't see people that way. If you saw people as free and equal, then you would understand that they are free to have these kinds of festivals, celebrations and cultural/racial/social/gender discussions. But you don't.

im not denying anybody anything,im just saying any white male equivalent would be pissed on from a great height by everyone pretty much.so please calm down and digest that.
now excuse me im off to georges st to beat gay black people.and if i see any women so much the better.

 

[jane]

im not denying anybody anything,im just saying any white male equivalent would be pissed on from a great height by everyone pretty much.so please calm down and digest that.
now excuse me im off to georges st to beat gay black people.and if i see any women so much the better.

So if a white male equivalent would be pissed on from a great height, how is that different from what you're doing when it comes to the celebrations of other people?

And are you seriously considering having one of these things? Or would you if offered? If so, why? What would it achieve? I'm genuinely interested.

In fact, I think an international conference on maleness and men's issues would be a genuinely useful thing for a lot of people. I am actually supporting what you are suggesting. If it were, like Black History Month, a way of seeking out and understanding the silenced voices of white men in the past (especially the millions of truly silenced ones, not the privileged classes, but the ones from whom most of us are probably descended, who have no named place in 'official histories'), I think it would be fabulous. If there were a conference held to discuss the issues relevant to white men today, it might raise some interesting points. These things of which you speak, they are not useless. You are saying they are useless. So that's your choice.

You just came here to act like someone just cut off your dick, not to discuss anything.

 

[mazzyianne]

Jaysus deafmute,
You sound a little overly defensive here, it's not that you're being accused of being racist or sexist, you just are denying people the right to acknowledge their difference. The fact is that whether you like it or not, not everyone is that same, they dont experience the world in the same way you do, and often people feel their point of view is not reflected by society, or for that matter, by groups opposing mainstream society.
The idea of international women's day is to take a look at some of the issues women experience, often things that are not seen as 'political'.
Do you know that women earn 11% less than men on average for the same work? And that it is mainly women who do the domestic work as well as recognised paid work? My point really is just that this is not seen as a problem or an issue until women discuss it and try and bring so called women's issues to the fore.
The same goes for the black history month or whatever you you really referring too. Can you not see that thet is a recognition of the history of a people which would not be seen otherwise.
You can say that you see people as equal til your face turns blue but that doesn't help anyone if they are not treated as equals in society.
I think i'll just stop now but I hope you can see it isn't an attack on white men when other people try to recognise that they are not the same and do not experience the world in the same way.

 

[billygannon]

Women definitely see the world differently to men.

 

[broken arm]

i always wonder how the figures on pay are worked out. not that I'm saying they are wrong.

what happens between the job being advertised at a particular rate and that changing once they decide to hire a woman? or is it that net income per sector split between the sexes or is the relative number employed from each sex taken into account?


maybe nlllllgbth can answer this being a high flying investment banker.

 

[c0De_n1NjA]

meh.....and whats with the womans mini marathon?
i can just imagine the response if there was a mens version....

they're called snickers now. the mens version is a yorkie.

 

[MDR]

i always wonder how the figures on pay are worked out. not that I'm saying they are wrong.

what happens between the job being advertised at a particular rate and that changing once they decide to hire a woman? or is it that net income per sector split between the sexes or is the relative number employed from each sex taken into account?


maybe nlllllgbth can answer this being a high flying investment banker.

As I understand it, the figures on pay differentials are not based on comparing a man and a woman in the same job. I think those stats are normally used to illustrate the preponderance of women in lower paid jobs.

By the way, there is a valid point to be made about regular casual references to male domination of the workplace or patriarchal societies, in that it seems to imply some collective responsibility among men for discrimination against women; moreover, it implies that men should have to endure some vague criticism for that. I regularly hear references to people saying we need to have more women in the Dail or in senior positions in industry. To me,that misses the point entirely. We should simply be removing barriers to capable people making their way to the top of their chosen profession, regardless of their sex, race, religion etc. In fact under existing irish law, that is the position.

Incidentally, i have a whole other rant on how societal pressure on men to work and provide financial security has systemattically excluded men from their families, but that's another day's work.

Incidentally, I'm not against women's day. I just think it's pointless.

 

[classic seanc]

In order to avoid getting meself in a quagmire, I'm just gonna address this to deafmute.
I'm assuming you're a youngish white man for the purpose of this post.

Please try to read this post in a calm, seanc offering his opinion kinda way, I'm not trying to have a go at you. I hate that shit. cool?

Now, you say everybody's equal regardless of sex/race etc etc. Grand, I'd say everyone here would agree with that. But just because people are equal doesn't mean they're the same. It's the differences that make things interesting. People wanna know about who they are and where they come from and how they're meant to fit into the world. So....some women have an international women's day, or black american's have their month. Sure let them off, more power to them.

You're a white/male/Irish/whatever, find some books and stuff about that, and research it, and find out what it means to you. There's no point in claiming that it means nothing to you. It might be an admirable aspiration, but it's not the case. There's no point in denying who you are, so you gotta find that shit out. Finding out about yourself isn't a bad thing, its just being human.

It can be hard to be a young man or whatever pigeon hole society might put you in today. But dude, it can be hard being anyone at any time. Put yourself in someone else's shoes and try to understand why black americans want their month, or why women want their day.


Jane says there is research on masculinity and all of that kinda stuff that you might be thinking about. It'd be cool if Jane or someone else could recommend some good reading or a decent link, it might clear up the stuff in your head, and give you a better understanding of these issues that do seem to be frustrating and troubling you.


There's my two cents.

Have a good one dude.

 

[mazzyianne]

Incidentally, i have a whole other rant on how societal pressure on men to work and provide financial security has systemattically excluded men from their families, but that's another day's work.

Incidentally, I'm not against women's day. I just think it's pointless.

I would totally agree with you on your top point there above. I think the current system exists to the detriment of both men and women, the idea that women aren't competitive enough and have too much responsiblity to their families to be any use in a job means that men are under pressure to always be competitive and have no responsibility for their family (other than financially of course)

However, pointless as international women's day may have been for you, for me it was a great experience. I got to meet amazing women who are way older than me and have been struggling for years for women's rights. I got a sense of the feminists that came before us, generations of women who I never learned about in school or in college. I saw how some of the same struggles could equally be applied today, the wage gap, abortion rights. Lots of things have changed and lots of things haven't. I had never celebrated it before really.
I was in Barcelona a few years back on march 8th and this huge stream of women and men had a parade along the ramblas as I stood there. 15 minutes later they were still coming.
Why not here?

 

[nlgbbbblth]

i always wonder how the figures on pay are worked out. not that I'm saying they are wrong.

what happens between the job being advertised at a particular rate and that changing once they decide to hire a woman? or is it that net income per sector split between the sexes or is the relative number employed from each sex taken into account?


maybe nlllllgbth can answer this being a high flying investment banker.

Women are in the majority in banking. But not at the senior management end which tends to be overpopulated by males.

Respective salaries do not depend on sex.
One thing which can be guaranteed though:

External recruits frequently get more money than people who are internally promoted. And they're twice as likely to leave - given their probable lack of loyalty.

 

[MDR]

However, pointless as international women's day may have been for you, for me it was a great experience.

That's fair enough. I'm genuinely glad that you got something worthwhile out of it.

 

[billygannon]

Women are in the majority in banking. But not at the senior management end which tends to be overpopulated by males.

Respective salaries do not depend on sex.
One thing which can be guaranteed though:

External recruits frequently get more money than people who are internally promoted. And they're twice as likely to leave - given their probable lack of loyalty.

It's true that women are the majority in banking. However I have seen the glass ceiling effect in action - an old boss of mine, who was clearly the most compedent person for a higher job, was passed over for a man whose qualifications were somewhat questionable. It was disappointing to say the least and one of the reasons I'm glad I'm not working in a bank anymore.

Absolutely true about external recruits. If you're new to a company, and you're coming in at a higher level, you've got a stronger position to negotiate your salary. People who work up through the ranks will find it more difficult to negotiate a salary - indeed, they could be restrained by a company salary scale structure.

When people who have focused on their job reach their 30s, they have built up experience and knowledge in their field of expertise and can start looking for more senior positions.
However many, and I would say most, women genuinely want to start a family in the 30s. This holds them back in terms of what jobs they can go for. The focus will be more on a company that allows flexible work hours - which are mostly large organisations with strict salary scales.
Because men don't have to go through the same physical and mental challenges that a woman goes through during a pregnancy, and when raising a young child, they will find it easier to take jobs in companies that are less flexible with hours, carry more responsibility and will ultimately pay far higher salaries.
I think this is where the split in salary scales really begin.

There definitely needs to be something done about it. It's not healthy for men in their 40s and 50s to carry on working as if they're in the 20s and 30s. 20 or 30 years working under stress will lead to serious illnesses.
Perhaps when people start reaching their 40s and 50s, men should take over in the family, while women should take over in the workforce?

 

[La La]

Women definitely see the world differently to men.

that's cos when we look down towards our feet we see breasts instead of beer bellies.