Hardened Anarchists in "I will vote" Shocker! (1 Viewer)

[brianMy Remorse]

Im sorry im not overly versed in anarchist ideology, but the whole thing about voting in a referndum only maintaining the unjust structure of society is ridiculous in my opinion. Voting means exercising your right to have a say (however minimal) in how this country is run and on the policies it adopts, a right that was fought for by many. (im not getting all nationalist here, i dont hold such strong beliefs, but would you really like to be under a ruling like in Britain where the people arent even considered sovereign, but instead this is vested in the queen?)
im not going to get into a debate on what type of structure works best, but the world has yet to see something other than democracy that will work for an appreciable length of time. (granted ancient civilisation / Athens had some concepts but still, it was inefficient)
right thats my rant.

ps the whole image thing is so true, just goes to prove the 'ol proverb, you can dye your hair, but not your heart.

ps, im now going to fuck the night, decadence and debauchery never felt this good.

 

[nooleen]

the whole thing about voting in a referndum only maintaining the unjust structure of society is ridiculous in my opinion.

but no-one has said anything like that! i'm pretty sure everyone who's replied has said the opposite in fact.
and ed, ahem ahem, fuck you, i went home and studied for the day, it was you who tottered off to your bed giggling like a schoolgirl and planning what satanic subliminal messages to put in a photo of you doing the 'pants dance' for children's BBC. fuck sake.

 

[nofunchee]

granted ancient civilisation / Athens had some concepts but still, it was inefficient

inefficient in what way? you could argue that a dictatorship is the most efficient way of running a country. people aren't efficient. we're shit for that. so why do things efficiently. fuck human resourse management. also, i've heard of athens but where the fuck is ancient civilization? is it near phibsboro?

 

[Corm]

cormy do ya not think that by not doing anything your letting the worst possible kind of leaders into power.....

if you tried to pick the best one and work from there would it not be better.

No, I think that it's ineviatable that unsuitable leaders will get into power anyway under the so-called democracy of a capitalist system. People can vote, yes, but it's money, big business, privalege, political manouvering, and dozens of other unequally balanced factors which decide who you're even allowed vote for.

your not changing anything by not voting. your pretty much giving them the fucking vote.
obviously i dont agree with governements and institutions and such but i think its a bit silly to say by not voting your making a positive change. cuz your not...your just letting them make shit decisions.

And you're not changing anything by voting, either -money & privalege still call the shots. I don't hold any illusions that not voting makes me any better or more righteous than anyvody or any other bullshit like that. I don't think that by not voting I'm making any kind of positive change just the same as I don't think that by voting I'd be making any kind of positive change. Basically at this stage, more and more, I think the world is just fucked and that its not really possible to make a positive change except in one's own life. The only thing you can do is try to affect change over your own life and environment and live in a way that causes as little harm as possible. That doesn't mean that I don't think you should still oppose them as strongly as possible, which I do, I just don't hold out any empty hopes on the possibility of large-scale social change. Things are just going to get worse.

imagine we actually had a decent p.m. not fuck face bertie.....it obviously would be better? do ya not think?

No, I don't think it would make the slightest difference. Bertie's a slimy fuck alright, but his hand is forced in the decisions he makes by economic and capitalism-deduced factos. Look at the recent shit going on wth the EU, that's what's brought this referendum into being. Look at Shannon and Ireland's sneaky support for the war on Iraq -that's happened because of Ireland's reliance on U.S. corporate interests for the economy.

Brian, no-one said that a referendum maintains an unjust balance in society -quite the opposite. I said that it was the act of voting for who leads you that just maintains and strenghtens a basely-unjust system. Referenda are a totally different thing all together.

But even that brings me to an interesting point -look at the EU referendum. The public voted "wrongly", so the government forced a repoll until the got the right answer -what a joke. So, even participatory democracy and voting in a referendum doesn't work. People vote for what they feel like, but the people in charge don't like that and force them to vote again. Everyone gets scared that the politicians know better and then go back and do what they're told to.

"If voting changed anything they'd make it illegal".

 

[Corm]

cormy do ya not think that by not doing anything your letting the worst possible kind of leaders into power.....

if you tried to pick the best one and work from there would it not be better.

No...I think that it's inevitable that unsuitable leaders will get into power anyway, under the so-called democracy of a capitalist system. People can vote, yes, but it's money, big business, privalege, political manouvering, and dozens of other unequally balanced factors which decide who you're even allowed vote for.

your not changing anything by not voting. your pretty much giving them the fucking vote.
obviously i dont agree with governements and institutions and such but i think its a bit silly to say by not voting your making a positive change. cuz your not...your just letting them make shit decisions.

And you're not changing anything by voting, either -money & privalege still call the shots. I don't hold any illusions that not voting makes me any better or more righteous than anybody or any other bullshit like that. I don't think that by not voting I'm making any kind of positive change just the same as I don't think that by voting I'd be making any kind of positive change. Basically at this stage, more and more, I think the world is just fucked and that its not really possible to make a positive change except in one's own life. The only thing you can do is try to affect change over your own life and environment and live in a way that causes as little harm as possible. Unfortunately I don't believe in any religious bullshit that would make living life a hell of a lot easier, but all I think is that 100 years from now we'll all be dead and at the end of it all the only thing that remains is your conscience and any positive (or negative) impact you've had on those around you. That doesn't mean that I don't think you should still oppose those who uphold this system for their own gain as strongly as possible, which I do, I just don't hold out any empty hopes on the possibility of large-scale social change. Things are just going to get worse.

imagine we actually had a decent p.m. not fuck face bertie.....it obviously would be better? do ya not think?

No, I don't think it would make the slightest difference. Bertie's a slimy fuck alright, but his hand is forced in the decisions he makes by economic and capitalism-deduced factors. Look at the recent shit going on wth the EU, that's what's brought this referendum into being. Look at Shannon and Ireland's sneaky support for the war on Iraq -that's happened because of Ireland's reliance on U.S. corporate interests for the economy.

Brian, no-one said that a referendum maintains an unjust balance in society -quite the opposite. I said that it was the act of voting for who leads you that just maintains and strenghtens a basely-unjust system. Referenda are a totally different thing all together.

But even that brings me to an interesting point -look at the EU referendum. The public voted "wrongly", so the government forced a repoll until they got the right answer -what a joke. So, even participatory democracy and voting in a referendum doesn't work. People vote for what they feel like, but the people in charge don't like that and force them to vote again. Everyone gets scared that the politicians know better and then go back and do what they're told to.

"If voting changed anything they'd make it illegal".

 

[Corm]

Sheesh, stupid preview button going wrong. The second one of those messages is the finished message, read that one.

Could "the administrator" who's decided you're not allowed to change messages after they've been posted delete the the preceding (earlier posted and slightly different with spelling mistakes) posting of the same message, plus this one. Please.

 

[brianMy Remorse]

nooly and Corm: corm you posted this, explaining the thinking behind anarchist thought,

The main reasons anarchists are generally against voting for governments and leaders is because it legitimises and strenghtens an intrinsically unjust system. By reforming it, you make something that's basically unequal (capitalist democracy) stonger, and thus make it harder to get rid of all the really fucked & harder to comprehend parts of it, by making the less obviously fucked parts of it more palatable. You've probably heard all this before."

probably should have made myself more clear, thats what i was referring to, (im not saying that this is what Corm believes)

And i believe it was in ancient athens where there was a council appointed with memebers of the community constituting its membership. the membership would change weekly or on some interval, so everyone one at some stage be involved in the running of the society existing there. as i say i think it was athens but i could be wrong. this proved ineffiecient because you have the inherent problem of different qualities between people and of course work being started and not carried over and brought to fruition by the following council.

and ancient civilisation (many might not know this) is the old name for limerick...modern times seeing the term 'civilised' losing all meaning there!

 

[Corm]

And in ancient Athens women & slaves weren't allowed to vote either -hardly the basis for an ideal system.

Oh, and look at communist Russia, everything was fucked there, obviously capitalist democracy and the free market is the only answer.

People say that this is the best system we have and that there's no other workable alternative being offered. Well, there is, is people would only bother to read into it.

And try telling the unprivaleged 80% of the world's population that this is the best system we have.

 

[the strange guy]

I've travelled the globe maaaaan, and believe me, Ireland is not a bad place to live. In fact, I'm sure if the government were to take your right to vote away you'd be smashing up the Dail.

 

[brianMy Remorse]

And in ancient Athens women & slaves weren't allowed to vote either -hardly the basis for an ideal system.

Oh, and look at communist Russia, everything was fucked there, obviously capitalist democracy and the free market is the only answer.

People say that this is the best system we have and that there's no other workable alternative being offered. Well, there is, is people would only bother to read into it.

And try telling the unprivaleged 80% of the world's population that this is the best system we have.

hey im not saying that this is the best system. but trying getting the worlds privileged 20% to change to something else... as you have already pointed out thay hold all the necessary power, thats what has to be addressed.


right, outside the dail with sledgehammers in an hour?
(the astute will note that i will not be in attendance unless i can be transported magically from cork, i just like inciting stuff, and then sit back and get my sick kicks out of it hearing it on the news from the mouth of sharon ni bheolain........mmmmmmmm)

 

[Corm]

Sure fuckin any excuse and I'd be smashing up the Dáil.

Yeah, Ireland's a (comparitively) alright place to live, but personally I don't feel happy living in a privaleged state only through reliance on the exploitation of the majority of the rest of the world's population. At this very monent I'm simultaneously exploiting a lama farmer in Peru, a family of 27 in Singapore, 3 monkeys and a tiger in Guatemala and a single mother in Ballybrack. That's hardly fair now.

 

[the strange guy]

We've all took advantage of that single mother in the brack. Sure it ain't right, but she won't be able to feed the little fella lying on her back for nothing. But she is going for next to nothing, hence the exploitation.

 

[nooleen]

too many non-sequiturs on this thread, i'm skipping to the next one without bothering to make a smart-arse comment.

 

[mc moley]

The only thing you can do is try to affect change over your own life and environment and live in a way that causes as little harm as possible.

glad ya said this!
you of all people know the way i like to stay away from all things political.....its cuz i prefer to believe in something along the lines of your statement above.
the reason i was saying vote for a liberal leader was because it would be better to live under someone who is sympathetic twords squatters rights or whatnot...get what im saying.
i dont really give a bollix about politics...im all about the personal change. but i thought you anarcho types who digest political manifestos like there's no tommorro were kinda being hypocritical...saying your all about political change when ya wont even vote.
i think the matter is cleared up somewhat now anyway....

but i'd still vote if it ment someone less idiotic was in charge.....it does make some sense when you think about it.

 

[the strange guy]

I agree with you darling.
Refusing to vote and then being on the verge of tears when Bertie wins AGAIN is the height of idiocy. But it does help with keeping a crusty anarcho image.

 

[Stephen]

I agree with you darling.
Refusing to vote and then being on the verge of tears when Bertie wins AGAIN is the height of idiocy. But it does help with keeping a crusty anarcho image.

This is too hiliarious!!!
Nobody (anarchist or otherwise) has ever said in the whole of this thread that they weren't going to vote in the Referendum.

You fucking self rightious fucks. Fucking more of my own voice please conductor!!!!!!

I couldn't give a fuck, you all aggree. But I think the best thing you are doing is being a great example of why anarchism can't work, as you still can't seem to aggree. ho ho ho

 

[Cormcolash]

I'm not going to vote in the Referendum.

 

[the strange guy]

When Stephen Doyle refuses to vote and then when his'mates' have to comfort him whilst on the verge of tears when Bertie wins AGAIN is another sad example of Stephen Doyle's idiocy. But it does help with keeping that "I'm an original culchie punk" image.

Fuck you Doylers.

 

[spuded]

im confused, real confused