Getting paid (1 Viewer)

[RSJ]

So i was whoring my photos around the place, specifically the ones from the punk festival in florida last month. Sent out a bunch of emails to punk webzines and such, telling them if they wanted photos to go with articles, i have shitloads. Got a few responses, one of which was from Punknews.org, who said they'd like to run a feature of my fest photos next week. They said they couldn't pay me, but they wouldn't ask for it to be exclusive either. I don't mind that because i know some of those guys, and nobody's making money off punknews, it just about pays for itself, plus they get something like four million hits a day, so it's great exposure for me. Sorted.

Anyways, i was talking to this other photographer last night, told him about the punknews thing, his first reaction was "what are they paying you". I said "nothing" and went to explain it's not a site that makes money and he gave me a look like "well what are you telling me about it for so" and walked off.

I know a lot of "professional" photgraphers get pissed when people give their own images away to bands for free, because as they see it, it devalues their work (as in how much they get paid), which is valid i suppose. I've worked with photographers who make good money shooting weddings, portraits, fashion and so forth, and that's all well and good, they're "in the business". I know it's a bitch to make a living as a concert/music photographer, but at the same time, i'm not going to turn around to, say, Betamax Format and go "well, i took a bunch of photos of you, but i want fifty quid for each one" because, at the moment, if a photo i take gets used for anything, i'm happy as fuckin larry - i think i have one or two nice photos but on the whole, i'm no Ansel Adams for damn sure. But at the same time, i'm getting tonnes of people using my photos for myspace, one or two in ads, a few in small zines, loads of gig posters...

So i know there's a few people on here "in the business", just wondering what point i should start thinking about money? If you were in my position, would you hold out for money off Punknews (knowing they'll probably just pass on the whole thing)? Or should i just be glad of the exposure for what are (to my mind) fairly mediocre photos?


(ETA: sorry about the long post, i'm hungover and it's on my mind in a big way)

 

[JohnnyRaz]

Ive found myself in a similar situation a couple of times. Basically a few pints being credited is enough for me at the moment; although some of my pics have ended up on websites/print uncredited and that has pissed me off. I think its a fine line between not selling yourself short and not overvaluing yourself; I certainly dont think any of my pics are worth 50e a pop!

So i was whoring my photos around the place, specifically the ones from the punk festival in florida last month. Sent out a bunch of emails to punk webzines and such, telling them if they wanted photos to go with articles, i have shitloads. Got a few responses, one of which was from Punknews.org, who said they'd like to run a feature of my fest photos next week. They said they couldn't pay me, but they wouldn't ask for it to be exclusive either. I don't mind that because i know some of those guys, and nobody's making money off punknews, it just about pays for itself, plus they get something like four million hits a day, so it's great exposure for me. Sorted.

Anyways, i was talking to this other photographer last night, told him about the punknews thing, his first reaction was "what are they paying you". I said "nothing" and went to explain it's not a site that makes money and he gave me a look like "well what are you telling me about it for so" and walked off.

I know a lot of "professional" photgraphers get pissed when people give their own images away to bands for free, because as they see it, it devalues their work (as in how much they get paid), which is valid i suppose. I've worked with photographers who make good money shooting weddings, portraits, fashion and so forth, and that's all well and good, they're "in the business". I know it's a bitch to make a living as a concert/music photographer, but at the same time, i'm not going to turn around to, say, Betamax Format and go "well, i took a bunch of photos of you, but i want fifty quid for each one" because, at the moment, if a photo i take gets used for anything, i'm happy as fuckin larry - i think i have one or two nice photos but on the whole, i'm no Ansel Adams for damn sure. But at the same time, i'm getting tonnes of people using my photos for myspace, one or two in ads, a few in small zines, loads of gig posters...

So i know there's a few people on here "in the business", just wondering what point i should start thinking about money? If you were in my position, would you hold out for money off Punknews (knowing they'll probably just pass on the whole thing)? Or should i just be glad of the exposure for what are (to my mind) fairly mediocre photos?


(ETA: sorry about the long post, i'm hungover and it's on my mind in a big way)

 

[mr pharmacist!!!!1]

i dont think theres anything wrong with giving images to bands/sites etc for free when starting off.
its the only way you're gonna get your work out there for people to see, from this you'll get exposure and the chance to work with more bands.
you'll naturally get to a point with your work where you'll want to charge people. its important to remember that you shouldnt undervalue your work as has already been mentioned. its easy to want to fall into the trap of doing freebies for people and a lot of bands will play the whole poor card but remember, your providing a service, just like a producer would when recording a demo.

 

[Jerry Twig]

Your stuff is damn good RSJ, and very best of luck with it. But the nature of DIY almost dictates that you won't make any sort of living out of it, even if you're better than 90% of professionals. So if you're thinking about money, you need to be approaching people who HAVE money, and they tend not to care too much about DIY punk rock.
I wonder how Cynthia Connolly pays the bills?

 

[IFF]

as long as they credit them as being yours i don't see the problem. you'll build up contacts with it which will be useful probably

though i'm not in the photgraphy or music business so my opinion don't count for much

 

[classic seanc]

EDIT: too long....

You're a good enough photographer to get paid out of it RSJ.

Have you thought about setting up a company? RSJ Photography ltd. or whatever. There's major tax advantages to be had if you want to take "the next step".

Do the Punknews thing, if you're happy with the pictures.

 

[Goff]

If you want to be professional, then do it. That might mean not doing any freebies, if you want to be taken seriously. But then, starting out, I can't see the problem. Just make sure that everything is credited. Or, if you think the photos aren't "great", then make sure they're NOT credited. You're the one to decide what's good or not. You're the one who has to decide what you want people to think about what an RSJ photo is. And market that.

There's nothing wrong with Pro Bono work. In fact, everyone should have to do something for free now and again. It also helps in you developing that "eye". There's nothing wrong with experience.

You'll also find the attitude of that photographer very common. They can be a bunch of petty and selfish shits. Especially with regards to their copyright. Stamping a note on the back of a child's picture threatening legal action if it's even scanned, etc. is just plain wrong. In the olden days, you had to go back to the photogrpaher for any copies. Legally speaking, most of the time, you still have to now. There seems to be a move away from that now for certain types of photogrpahy. Some wedding photographers in the uk, for example, are charging slightly higher for the photos, but giving high resolution images on disk as part of the album.

Tha fact of the matter is that some of your images will be used without permission or credit. It's up to you to see if you want to chase it up. If someone does use one and you email them asserting your copyright, you might be pleasently surprised. American companies, in particular, will come to some arrangement. If it's just some webpage, ask for the pic to be credited or removed. They'll usually comply. Sometimes, it just not worth it.

Remember, as they'll tell you on every self-help infomercial and pop psychology gick, "If you want to be prefessional, you gotta act/charge professional.*"

Good luck with it.

You should get yourself a copy of the Freelance Photographer's Guide 2007:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0907297587/?tag=thumpedcom04-21


*Be rude and obnoxious and overly protective of your right to charge for "lazy" photos.

Edit: Just found this which might be of interest. NUJ freelance rates:

http://www.londonfreelance.org/feesguide/photo.html

 

[RSJ]

Edit: Just found this which might be of interest. NUJ freelance rates:

http://www.londonfreelance.org/feesguide/photo.html

That's a really great link .|..|


Anyways, thanks for all of the above. I talked to a few people about this and since my stuff's getting used, i'm going to look into doing some formal training so i won't feel so bad about asking for money for photos, which i guess i'll start doing too if the people (a) stand to make a profit and (b) are in a position to pay for it. Seems logical i suppose.

 

[Anthony]

Keep taking better and better photos, get credited and soon you'll start being asked to take photos. At which point you can discuss a fee.

 

[magicbastarder]

you can bet your arse that that photographer started out in the same way - doing stuff for free to build up a portfolio.
and if the people who used the photo wouldn't have been able to afford to pay anyway, it's not as if you're stealing the food from his table.

 

[george mcfly]

i did the same with doing websites for people, i did a few for buddies for free and it is a great way of getting your work seen.
i think you just have to start setting a price up front if you are doing a shoot for someone
taking lve photos first is a deadly way to get bands interested in you doing a shoot for them though.

those betamax cunts!

 

[mr pharmacist!!!!1]

george check your myspace inbox
LOL

 

[george mcfly]

OMG! THNX!! CN U SND SUM 2 ME?

 

[mr pharmacist!!!!1]

OMG! THNX!! CN U SND SUM 2 ME?

EH, OF CORSE!
TONITE, K?