Casual anti-Americanism (2 Viewers)

[jane]

Is there anyone else who thinks this is a bit short-sighted? I can just hear poor Connor from D4 now, when there's no-one to make his latte and parma ham bagel, and no-one to look after him when he gets the shit kicked out of him by knackers in the city centre, cos the guards are too stretched trying to man the borders against all the people who are the infrastructure of the country.

A lot of people recognise the short-sightedness of this sort of thing, hence the existence of groups like Residents Against Racism, who aren't just about combating racism in its overt sense, but about all kinds of issues. The problem is that passing anti-immigrant policies guarantees the anti-immigration vote. PAssing pro-immigration, pro-multiculturalism policies is much more of a risk because the people you're making the happiest in the short term do not have a right to vote to begin with.

I would in no way suggest that everyone in Ireland is trying to keep the immigrants out -- on the contrary, I think most people, when being sensible and practical do see that letting people live here as if it can be a home (rather than just work here) is the best long-term solution. But it's not reaching the decisionmakers at the top in the most appropriate way.

 

[TenRabbits]

PAssing pro-immigration, pro-multiculturalism policies is much more of a risk

I'm as sure about the benefits of immigration to any nation as I'm unsure about the benefits of multiculturalist policies. This doesn't by any stretch mean I'm against foreign cultures, but I watched a very interesting documentary by one of founders of multiculturalism in the UK, where he rather vehemently argued that it has worked against immigrants to the UK rather than for. He was all for retaining your home culture, but not at the expense of ending up (as in so many cities in the UK now) with essentially Asian/Black/White areas where people don't even speak the same language. His point was that any country that wants to retain a sense of national identity (the thing that units us all) needs to recognise the multi-cultural nature of its population, while that population support the country they are in. His argument was that the end result was the population a few generations down the line still see the country they live in as essentially hostile to their way of life, as they've never gained a sense of national identity.

Slightly off topic sorry Jane! I'm appalled they've made it so hard for you and others like you to stay.. it's mad that they'd limit the ability of people who just want to work, and generally love the country, to stay!

 

[Anthony]

Americans do go on a bit though don't they.

 

[therealjohnny]

Americans do go on a bit though don't they.

points, screams

"HATE CRIME!"

 

[jane]

I'm as sure about the benefits of immigration to any nation as I'm unsure about the benefits of multiculturalist policies. This doesn't by any stretch mean I'm against foreign cultures, but I watched a very interesting documentary by one of founders of multiculturalism in the UK, where he rather vehemently argued that it has worked against immigrants to the UK rather than for. He was all for retaining your home culture, but not at the expense of ending up (as in so many cities in the UK now) with essentially Asian/Black/White areas where people don't even speak the same language. His point was that any country that wants to retain a sense of national identity (the thing that units us all) needs to recognise the multi-cultural nature of its population, while that population support the country they are in. His argument was that the end result was the population a few generations down the line still see the country they live in as essentially hostile to their way of life, as they've never gained a sense of national identity.

Slightly off topic sorry Jane! I'm appalled they've made it so hard for you and others like you to stay.. it's mad that they'd limit the ability of people who just want to work, and generally love the country, to stay!

People don't ghettoise themselves. People are ghettoised by others. I'll put it this way. I don't feel ghettoised, but I can sort of see how it happens. LAtely, I've found myself spending more and more time with my American friends here because I feel like I can be myself around them more than I can around Irish people. See, whenever someone wants to have an opinion stated that they're afraid to say themselves, they ask me. "Oh, JAne's really outspoken. She'll speak up." But when I want to speak up about something that was not assigned to me by an Irish person, it's immediately, "OH, you fucking Americans are never happy."

In addition, here's a little example of something that I'm downright tired of. I went to a barbecue on Friday. I met someone who was a friend of a friend, whom I'd met once before, but only briefly. As I was shaking his hand, he said, "Fucking Americans." I asked him why. He said, "I dunno, I jsut felt like saying it." See, I'm sorry, but I don't know this motherfucker, and I really don't see why I have to go around pretending like I have no right to say that I'm not really psyched about being insulted by strangers. If being fucking randomly insulted when I'm just being friendly goes with the territory, then yiz can have yer fucking territory back, and I'll just fuck off home. It's not so much that it happens, it's that it is not, apparently, okay for me to be annoyed about it.

There is no such thing as a fixed national identity. Constant change is the very nature of culture itself. If it weren't, people would still be living in rock shelters and making handaxes out of flint pebbles. What is, then, national identity in Ireland? National identity does not unite 'us' because, hi, I am not part of your national identity, if that's how you're going to define it. The 'identity' of a nation can be a dangerous myth, an 'identity' based on who and what you wish were in your country. Or, you can acknowledge reality, and allow it to be loosely defined by who and what is actually in your country. If you think multiculturalism is wrong, then what is your solution? I don't know who is in this documentary, but blaming the foreigners for not integrating is basically a one-way ticket to joining the BNP. Multiculturalism is not something you 'found' and 'implement', it's a process. It isn't just about policies. Unfortunately, it means that people have to accept that the appropriate way to greet a foreign person is not to tell her she is a piece of shit, and then deflect responsibility by saying she just can't take a joke.

In addition, as far as the 'failure' of multiculturalism goes, it's partly down to the fact that most attempts at multiculturalism do not extend to actual legal rights. Everyone wants their international festivals, and they'll bop along to African music, but when it comes down to hiring time, are they going to let a Nigerian onto the payroll? Not likely. People become ghettoised when you treat their culture like a fucking minstrel show, to be hauled out when it suits, and when you tell them to sit down and shut up when they actually try to speak with their own cultural voices.

In closing, people do not ghettoise themselves. When you try to control them by telling them what their contribution to society will be, and that it can extend no further than entertaining Whitey, that's when they just fuck off to their own communities -- they've been left with no choice. Their real voices are not allowed, and their real experience has been distilled into a digestible, edible and marketable cultural package. Why bother trying to integrate when no one is listening unless you're banging a drum?

 

[dudley]

As I was shaking his hand, he said, "Fucking Americans." I asked him why. He said, "I dunno, I jsut felt like saying it."

whoa. that's pretty damned ignorant, what a jerk.

 

[jane]

whoa. that's pretty damned ignorant, what a jerk.

Fact number one: the guy is involved with multicultural activities here.
Fact number two: it's not so much that that was ignorant, it's that if I dare get annoyed about it, I'm somehow 'letting them win' or 'being uppity'. You know what, though? I wish I could go like two hours without someone else using my nationality as an excuse to dismiss me as a person, or demanding that I explain myself. I'm really fucking tired of it, and I wish people would just accept that people who are foriegn do not want to spend all day discussing their foreignness with fucking strangers, or explaining their presence in this country, and justifying why it is we think we have a right to pollute the gene pool. I mean, if it's so fucking annoying for me, how shitty must it be for someone who doesn't come from a white, anglophone, educated background? It must suck something seriously awful for them.

 

[oh shit]

In addition, as far as the 'failure' of multiculturalism goes, it's partly down to the fact that most attempts at multiculturalism do not extend to actual legal rights. Everyone wants their international festivals, and they'll bop along to African music, but when it comes down to hiring time, are they going to let a Nigerian onto the payroll? Not likely. People become ghettoised when you treat their culture like a fucking minstrel show, to be hauled out when it suits, and when you tell them to sit down and shut up when they actually try to speak with their own cultural voices.

but that's what "multiculturalism" has always meant, a politically correct ideology to justify and explain continued segregation, discrimination, and ghettoisation.

"people don't need to be given their culture, only their rights" (sivanandan)

 

[jane]

but that's what "multiculturalism" has always meant, a politically correct ideology to justify and explain continued segregation, discrimination, and ghettoisation.

"people don't need to be given their culture, only their rights" (sivanandan)

I guess it just depends on how you define 'multiculturalism'. But yes, you're right. I think the problem is that people think it's an either/or situation: either people integrate themselves and adopt the 'host' culture, or they stay in their communities and don't interact with the 'host' culture at all. It's just not that simple.

 

[quasiquasi]

Some of my best friends are American. Honestly.

Seriously though, the comments you're describing are truly idiotic. Expounding opinions on "Americans" is about as clever as revealing facts about "black people" or "Africans"...don't let it get you down, there are loads of unprejudiced people out there, some/most of them are on Thumped...

The whole national-community-abroad thing is a different dynamic. I frequently end up in conversations with randoms purely on the basis of shared Irishness, regardless of the fact that we would never cross paths back home.

 

[jane]

Some of my best friends are American. Honestly.

Seriously though, the comments you're describing are truly idiotic. Expounding opinions on "Americans" is about as clever as revealing facts about "black people" or "Africans"...don't let it get you down, there are loads of unprejudiced people out there, some/most of them are on Thumped...

The whole national-community-abroad thing is a different dynamic. I frequently end up in conversations with randoms purely on the basis of shared Irishness, regardless of the fact that we would never cross paths back home.

Yeah, I do, too, actually. I used to avoid it, but the recent increase in comments has meant I don't avoid it as much anymore. But I do think that for a lot of people, ridiculous comments about Americans are a safe repository for whatever they might previously have said about other cultures who live here. This is not to say we have it harder, or that racism has in any way gone away -- because it's fucking worse than ever -- but while a lot of people will no longer be openly racist in public (even though more of them probably are than anyone would like to admit -- though should admit), it's perfectly acceptable to look a Yank in the eye and tell her she is a piece of shit.

There's nothing that can be done about that. I'm just supposed to 'take it on the chin' because after all, Ireland and the US have a "special relationship", but fucking hell, that's a bit like saying that having been on holiday to Morocco gives you a right to give out about Africans, or that having African friends gives you licence to be racist about the 'rest' of them. Except that it's not because, duh, I'm still benefitting from white privilege and anglophone privilege, which means that it is, regardless of my bitching, comparably easier here for me.

Most people on Thumped are pretty okay about it, and I don't get that upset if someone I know makes a funny comment or something, but it's only in the context of, well, someone I know, and a comment that does not imply that they are trying to remind me that no matter how long I stay here, I will never be accepted as part of Irish society. I might be accepted in the social circles I'm in, and that's cool, but I actually get to a point where I know that if I open my mouth, something is going to double in price and halve in quality, and/or be accompanied by a fucking obnoxious comment, or someone trying (badly) to mimic my accent, and I just want to fuck off out of here and never look back.

 

[billygannon]

Yeah, I do, too, actually. I used to avoid it, but the recent increase in comments has meant I don't avoid it as much anymore. But I do think that for a lot of people, ridiculous comments about Americans are a safe repository for whatever they might previously have said about other cultures who live here. This is not to say we have it harder, or that racism has in any way gone away -- because it's fucking worse than ever -- but while a lot of people will no longer be openly racist in public (even though more of them probably are than anyone would like to admit -- though should admit), it's perfectly acceptable to look a Yank in the eye and tell her she is a piece of shit.

There's nothing that can be done about that. I'm just supposed to 'take it on the chin' because after all, Ireland and the US have a "special relationship", but fucking hell, that's a bit like saying that having been on holiday to Morocco gives you a right to give out about Africans, or that having African friends gives you licence to be racist about the 'rest' of them. Except that it's not because, duh, I'm still benefitting from white privilege and anglophone privilege, which means that it is, regardless of my bitching, comparably easier here for me.

Most people on Thumped are pretty okay about it, and I don't get that upset if someone I know makes a funny comment or something, but it's only in the context of, well, someone I know, and a comment that does not imply that they are trying to remind me that no matter how long I stay here, I will never be accepted as part of Irish society. I might be accepted in the social circles I'm in, and that's cool, but I actually get to a point where I know that if I open my mouth, something is going to double in price and halve in quality, and/or be accompanied by a fucking obnoxious comment, or someone trying (badly) to mimic my accent, and I just want to fuck off out of here and never look back.

You should just take the piss out of the Irish if they start slagging you.

If an Irish person tells you you're shit because you're American, then they're clearly setting themselves up.
If it wasn't for America, Ireland would be pretty much fucked. It's hard to argue against that.

 

[jane]

You should just take the piss out of the Irish if they start slagging you.

If an Irish person tells you you're shit because you're American, then they're clearly setting themselves up.
If it wasn't for America, Ireland would be pretty much fucked. It's hard to argue against that.

But the fact is, I'm tired of being fucking slagged all the time by people who have absolutely nothing to do with my life. And I have tried to slag back, but I end up getting in trouble for doing it. There really is no way out, except to sit there and take the fucking reminder that I'm an unwelcome piece of shit 'on the chin'.

Anyway, I don't think people should be respected based on their economic input in the country -- i.e., American investment in Ireland -- I think they should just be fucking respected and accepted without having to waste so much time and energy explaining themselves.

 

[broken arm]

irish people are bitter and twisted. and racist. they also smell. and can't organise music festivals. fuck them.

 

[Osama Van Halen]

irish people are bitter and twisted. and racist. they also smell. and can't organise music festivals. fuck them.

SOUNDS TO ME LIKE SOMEONE COULD USE A LITTLE MORE DIAMOND DAVID LEE ROTH IN THEIR LIFE.

FESTILADAS AND FIREWORKS HIPPIE!!!

ALLAHQUAANNNDO!!!

 

[ICUH8N]

But the fact is, I'm tired of being fucking slagged all the time by people who have absolutely nothing to do with my life. And I have tried to slag back, but I end up getting in trouble for doing it. There really is no way out, except to sit there and take the fucking reminder that I'm an unwelcome piece of shit 'on the chin'.

Anyway, I don't think people should be respected based on their economic input in the country -- i.e., American investment in Ireland -- I think they should just be fucking respected and accepted without having to waste so much time and energy explaining themselves.

That happens to everyone here who isn't Irish, and to everyone in France who isn't French, and and and. Some friends of mine think it's funny to call me a Nazi, and people often make ridiculous and offensive comments to me in a professional context upon introduction because my surname has an umlaut in it, and isn't Doyle, or Smith, or McWhatever, and so isn't easily classifiable, and I'm only half-foreign, and certainly don't look or sound like I am. My brother-in-law constantly gets abuse from random people in the pub (not to mention consistently shite service in pubs from grumpy middle-aged pricks) because he's French, despite the fact that his English is impeccable, though accented. It happened to my mother in Germany for 15 years too, despite the fact that she made every effort to fit in.
That's not a defence, or a justification, or even a casual "stop moaning about it" statement, but xenophobia, be it mild or otherwise is a regrettable part of living abroad, even for middle-class white people, and one which is usually ameliorated by the positives. Wouldn't the same thing happen to you (though perhaps to a lesser extent) if you moved from, say, NY to West Virginia? Or even just switched coasts in the US?
I really don't like it, and I do occasionally directly address it when I'm feeling particularly short-tempered or hungover, but on the whole, I find it too tiring to try and constantly fight what I feel is a losing battle.

 

[Squiggle]

Anyway, I don't think people should be respected based on their economic input in the country -- i.e., American investment in Ireland -- I think they should just be fucking respected and accepted without having to waste so much time and energy explaining themselves.

I totally agree that people should be respected just because they are people.

Something that might be worth considering is that this lovely country is full of piss takers and half-joking begrudgers. I think one possibly has to have grown up here to be able to cope with it - and even then sometimes it gets a bit old.

I know you're talking about specific comments aimed at your national origin - and coming from strangers... but anything that marks a person out as different can make them a target for the 'crowd'.

It is a pity that we, as a nation, can't direct our wit and intellect into more productive channels and that you have been offended.

 

[billygannon]

Anyway, I don't think people should be respected based on their economic input in the country -- i.e., American investment in Ireland -- I think they should just be fucking respected and accepted without having to waste so much time and energy explaining themselves.

Actually, I wasn't really refering to the economic input of America. That's as fickle as Italian coalition government in the 1980s.
It's more the political and social input of America over the past two hundred years.
On top of that, some of the best people I've met in Ireland have been Americans.

 

[billygannon]

On top of that, some of the best people I've met in Ireland have been Americans.

Actually, this point doesn't link in any way to the point I made preceeding it. Still, it is true.

Irish people are really bad at casually taking the piss out of people because of where they're from. It's just stupid.
I mean, for fuck's sake... Ireland spends, I dunno how many millions of euro every year on two sports that they refuse to promote in any other country.
It's inward looking if anything.

 

[broken arm]

Ireland spends, I dunno how many millions of euro every year on two sports that they refuse to promote in any other country.
It's inward looking if anything.

that's non-representative. it's undemocratic.

hate the gaaaaaaaaa