Cancelled (3 Viewers)

As I said, I would almost hesitate recommending as it might ruin your week, but I wanted to read something that was based on evidence, it took her years of research...and it's really upsetting. But it's also fair-minded. I guess her approach is one as an investigate journalist - she follows the story/stories, and collates so much evidence, it takes the heat out of the horrible online "debates" and gives you this cohesive document. I cannot stop thinking about it.
 
It's actually a bit more complicated than that - I read this book a few weeks ago, and it made for some harrowing reading -

Time to Think by Hannah Barnes review – what went wrong at Gids?

-as ever, nothing coherent seems to emerge on Twitter or other comparable sources, so I don't engage with it, it seems to extrapolate unhelpful headlines, leaving a strange space for even further unhelpful discourse - it's always comforting to know there are people doing the actual research in the background. I would almost hesitate recommending the book, as it's very depressing, and the world can be heavy as it is, but it is very, very rigorous.

I suspect I am "cancelled" anyway, but I am okay with that, it's more peaceful on this island :).

So this says that actual children, not teenagers, of legal age are being led down a trans path and having their mental health issues pushed to the side.

Fucking hell, maybe there is merit to what Dee Snider is saying??

I am aware he is in the us of a and this artco is based in the uk but his point seems somewhat vaild?

I haven't a clue but that's what it appears to be ?
 
So this says that actual children, not teenagers, of legal age are being led down a trans path and having their mental health issues pushed to the side.

Fucking hell, maybe there is merit to what Dee Snider is saying??

I am aware he is in the us of a and this artco is based in the uk but his point seems somewhat vaild?

I haven't a clue but that's what it appears to be ?
It is a minefield, but the book clearly shows that a lot of bad decisions were made, and often relating to children, some of the cases are children younger than 10. You're right, this book investigates the Tavistock clinic in the UK, but there are different parallels with the U.S. and some other places. I don't know what Dee Snider has read as such (!) but there are so many issues - and we know they won't get solved on the internet, but I'm grateful that some experts and investigate journalists are trying to give a more clear and rounded depiction of these issues, so that it might be more helpful going forward. The book frightened me, because it was hard to accept the gravity of some of the mistakes that were made, and that there was something of a pattern, it feels like treading gently is the way forward.
 
Yep, from the article @YoungHearts posted it seems like there is. He's expressed it poorly, but that doesn't mean he's wrong

i fear we would be getting called transphobes for suggesting that maybe dem kids are a bit young for that shit.
Pardon my ignince, but what's the law with regards to age here ?
 
there was a louis theroux doc a few years ago about this, where he visited a clinic in san fran, and they mentioned that i think their youngest clients were 18 months old.

who in holy fucking hell would bring their 18 month old to a clinic? IIRC kids have barely even started to develop a sense of self at that age, let alone start to care about whether they're a girl or a boy.
(IIRC when kids start to learn how to lie is part of their development of self - when they realise that their parents aren't omnipotent and all seeing).
 
Wait.

Is that article trying to say that waging public opinion wars through abbreviated social media via the medium of media socialities, celebrities we trust for other things and algorythims has not been giving us a clear picture of events?

Shocking.
 
i fear we would be getting called transphobes for suggesting that maybe dem kids are a bit young for that shit.
Pardon my ignince, but what's the law with regards to age here ?
Just in terms of the UK (given that book I mentioned) there was a court case a few years back that initially established a legal principle that young people under 16 could not be given puberty blockers and cross sex hormones, as they weren't viewed as mentally "competent" to understand the gravity of the long-term effects of that (fertility, and so on), but then that ruling was overturned by the Courts of Appeal there in 2021, because the judges said that they didn't want to establish a legal principle in this matter as it was too delicate - "The court was not in a position to generalise about the capability of persons of different ages to understand what is necessary for them to be competent to consent to the administration of puberty blockers". So it is legal there to put young people under 16 on that treatment path, but as far as I know, doesn't give a guide-age about when the treatment can actually begin, it is linked to puberty, but then some children are being put on that treatment long before puberty is onset.

The judges felt it was for doctors to decide, but I suppose the book (which was published after this judgement) clearly shows that sometimes doctors were rushing their patients to this particular kind of treatment, and that in some cases it is not the right thing. That there was more of a general principle to do so. So it's still a real minefield. There is so much stress involved for everyone involved, and so it's really discomfiting. There are more cases being taken against that clinic (which has now been shut down) at the moment, and I think more legal and medical debates will happen over the next few years, because it's really so serious. We don't have a similar clinic in Ireland, so young Irish people were being referred to the clinic the book investigates. This is not much comfort to write, but I hope that things will be better all round in years to come, it isn't wrong to ask questions and have oversight with anything really, or at least it shouldn't be, as it's only in the spirit of wanting transparency and things to be better for all.
 
there was a louis theroux doc a few years ago about this, where he visited a clinic in san fran, and they mentioned that i think their youngest clients were 18 months old.

who in holy fucking hell would bring their 18 month old to a clinic? IIRC kids have barely even started to develop a sense of self at that age, let alone start to care about whether they're a girl or a boy.
(IIRC when kids start to learn how to lie is part of their development of self - when they realise that their parents aren't omnipotent and all seeing).
I must look that Louis Theroux documentary up, I tend to like his approach :)
 
Barnes had serious trouble even getting someone to publish the book
So many agents and publishers were afraid to touch it. Afraid of any possible backlash, and afraid of what their staff would do if they did.
Not really a great situation.

The NHS finally came out last year and said that Tavistock was an unsafe place for children
But anyone saying that in the years before that, while all this unsafe treatment was going on, was labeled anti-trans, a hatemonger, endangering lives etc. and all that goes with it. All while lauding the clinic as being both ethical and essential. Which it was clearly not.

When you can't have a debate, you can't get to the truth.
 
Albini's reply
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It's a good internet zinger, but all he's really saying is "my cultural value is higher than yours. your music sucks, but mine is good."
Which doesn't really counter whatever it is Stanley is going on about.
 
If anything Steve sounds sounds like someone desperately trying to be on the right side of the present, never mind the future. Pointless tweet. Not tweeting would have accomplished that more easily.
 
If anything Steve sounds sounds like someone desperately trying to be on the right side of the present, never mind the future. Pointless tweet. Not tweeting would have accomplished that more easily.
or; here's a debate with ramifications, where a lot is at stake; anyone sensible really only gets involved if they think they have something useful to say. albini uses it to get a dig in at someone, unrelated to the matter at hand. pure twitter.
 
The NHS finally came out last year and said that Tavistock was an unsafe place for children
But anyone saying that in the years before that, while all this unsafe treatment was going on, was labeled anti-trans, a hatemonger, endangering lives etc. and all that goes with it. All while lauding the clinic as being both ethical and essential. Which it was clearly not.
Yes
I bolded "was labeled" there because - was labeled by who? If any of us here are inclined to pass judgement on people in this way, I hope this will encourage us to think again
 

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