Bowling for Columbine (1 Viewer)

[spiritualtramp]

Originally posted by vertrauen
I saw it a while ago, and thought it was great. But i heard (and this could be bullshit) that alot or some of the interviews were staged and the facts were untrue. dunno whether this is true or not.

that is true.michael moore is the pinnochio of journalism.

the factory near columbine isn't a missile factory at all.
his book is full of shit too .

its a shame he made up stuff like this as it takes away from the message of the film.

 

[egg_]

Originally posted by spiritualtramp
the factory near columbine isn't a missile factory at all.

Here's an article from Forbes Magazine that may be the source of your misgivings about the film:

"Michael Moore's Oscar-contender documentary, Bowling for Columbine, pokes fun at corporate creeps and hypocrites in his crusade to figure out who is to blame for the gun-related violence in America. But we've found Moore's facts a little slippery.

TITLE: Moore titled the movie Bowling for Columbine because, he suggests, the two kids who shot up Columbine High in Littleton, Colo., went to a 6 a.m. bowling class on the day of the attack.
ACTUALLY: Cool story, but police say it's not true. They say the shooters skipped their bowling class that day.

MISSILES: Moore wonders whether kids at Columbine might be driven to violence because of the "weapons of mass destruction" made in Lockheed Martin's assembly plant in Littleton. Moore shows giant rockets being assembled.
ACTUALLY: Lockheed Martin's plant in Littleton doesn't make weapons. It makes space launch vehicles for TV satellites.

WELFARE: Moore places blame for a shooting by a child in Michigan on the work-to-welfare program that prevented the boy's mother from spending time with him.
ACTUALLY: Moore doesn't mention that mom had sent the boy to live in a house where her brother and a friend kept drugs and guns.

BANK: Moore says North Country Bank & Trust in Traverse City, Mich., offered a deal where, "if you opened an account, the bank would give you a gun." He walks into a branch and walks out with a gun.
ACTUALLY: Moore didn't just walk in off the street and get a gun. The transaction was staged for cameras. You have to buy a long-term CD, then go to a gun shop to pick up the weapon after a background check."

I think points 1 and 4 above are utterly irrelevant ... so fucking what like
Point 2, Lockheed Martin is a huge manufacturer of missiles, just cos they don't make em in their factory which is closest to Columbine doesn't invalidate Moore's thesis
Point 3 - Moore does mention the kid's uncle kept a gun in the house ... Forbes magazine conveniently ignores the reason the the kid went to live there (cos his mom was working the welfare-to-work thing)


I'd prefer if Moore told the whole truth and nothing else, but a handful of things that distort the letter-of-the-truth but not its spirit hardly make him a liar

 

[Anne OMalley]

Rhetoric and Documentaries

He mightn't be a liar, exactly, but it's possible that he is being disingenuous. Surely that's of interest? I mean, would you say nobody was surprised to learn that Moore made some stuff up in his film? I'd say a lot of people were very surprised.

More specifically, it is interesting to note that while Moore is not beyond making stuff up for pure rhetorical effect, he would undoubtedly use up good celluloid telling us about it had it happened on the other side of his moral fence.

Personally, I don't care that much about the nitty gritty details of Moore's argument because I think there is a place for being "cavalier with the facts", as they say. But journalists and people who make documentaries do care about factual accuracy - that is part and parcel of the genres (of writing and of film-mkaing) to which they are committed. I don't find it surprising that any magazine should object to Moore on those grounds. If the comments had appeared in a left-leaning mag like The Nation, rather than a right-leaning one like Forbes, would you find them objectionable...?

What I find worrying about Moore is the fact that his arguments are so confused. I mean, who here can tell me what, according to his film, Moore thinks is the cause of gun-related crime in America...? I defy anyone to show that "Bowling for Columbine" provides a coherent answer to that question.

Moore's strengths are as a humourist and as an interviewer. As a humourist, he is dry, sarcastic and very amusing (see "Roger and Me" for more evidence, if needs be). As an interviewer, he seems able to coax the most incredible admissions from people.

But as a reporter, a "recorder of facts", he's not on the map. And as a political commentator, his opinions are muddy.

Originally posted by egg_
Here's an article from Forbes Magazine that may be the source of your misgivings about the film:

"Michael Moore's Oscar-contender documentary, Bowling for Columbine, pokes fun at corporate creeps and hypocrites in his crusade to figure out who is to blame for the gun-related violence in America. But we've found Moore's facts a little slippery.

TITLE: Moore titled the movie Bowling for Columbine because, he suggests, the two kids who shot up Columbine High in Littleton, Colo., went to a 6 a.m. bowling class on the day of the attack.
ACTUALLY: Cool story, but police say it's not true. They say the shooters skipped their bowling class that day.

MISSILES: Moore wonders whether kids at Columbine might be driven to violence because of the "weapons of mass destruction" made in Lockheed Martin's assembly plant in Littleton. Moore shows giant rockets being assembled.
ACTUALLY: Lockheed Martin's plant in Littleton doesn't make weapons. It makes space launch vehicles for TV satellites.

WELFARE: Moore places blame for a shooting by a child in Michigan on the work-to-welfare program that prevented the boy's mother from spending time with him.
ACTUALLY: Moore doesn't mention that mom had sent the boy to live in a house where her brother and a friend kept drugs and guns.

BANK: Moore says North Country Bank & Trust in Traverse City, Mich., offered a deal where, "if you opened an account, the bank would give you a gun." He walks into a branch and walks out with a gun.
ACTUALLY: Moore didn't just walk in off the street and get a gun. The transaction was staged for cameras. You have to buy a long-term CD, then go to a gun shop to pick up the weapon after a background check."

I think points 1 and 4 above are utterly irrelevant ... so fucking what like
Point 2, Lockheed Martin is a huge manufacturer of missiles, just cos they don't make em in their factory which is closest to Columbine doesn't invalidate Moore's thesis
Point 3 - Moore does mention the kid's uncle kept a gun in the house ... Forbes magazine conveniently ignores the reason the the kid went to live there (cos his mom was working the welfare-to-work thing)


I'd prefer if Moore told the whole truth and nothing else, but a handful of things that distort the letter-of-the-truth but not its spirit hardly make him a liar

 

[the pope]

Re: Rhetoric and Documentaries

Originally posted by Anne OMalley

Moore's strengths are as a humourist and as an interviewer. As a humourist, he is dry, sarcastic and very amusing (see "Roger and Me" for more evidence, if needs be). As an interviewer, he seems able to coax the most incredible admissions from people.

But as a reporter, a "recorder of facts", he's not on the map. And as a political commentator, his opinions are muddy.

yeah, thats pretty much what it boils down to.
he's quite well up on domestic issues, but he's particulary muddy when it comes to foreign policies and situations. ie: middle east, northern ireland.

 

[egg_]

Re: Rhetoric and Documentaries

Originally posted by Anne OMalley
If the comments had appeared in a left-leaning mag like The Nation, rather than a right-leaning one like Forbes, would you find them objectionable...?

Ah Anne, now! I thought we were friends
... anyway I don't so much find the comments objectionable as just slightly silly and very nit-picky. Of course I'd prefer if Moore had been absolutely rigorous with the facts, but a large part of his appeal (and what enables him to preach to the unconverted) is that he is a Stupid White Man.

But as a reporter, a "recorder of facts", he's not on the map. And as a political commentator, his opinions are muddy.

Chomsky might be more to my taste, but, y'know, I'm an oddball. It's nice for normal people to have one of their own to point out the crazy shit that's going on in the world

 

[Anne OMalley]

Re: Re: Rhetoric and Documentaries

But Michael Moore's not normal, he's the Quasimodo of the left. He lopes around wearing big pants and a non-judgemental face. He's great crack and he knows how to make a pompous ass spew shite until his credibility pants drop down around his ankles in front of the leering camera. Moore's the world's first pornographer of idiocy. He's blissfully abnormal - naturally! And who'd have it any other way?

(BTW, of course we're friends, yeh daft ovum - I wouldn't waste time arguing with anyone else. )

Originally posted by egg_
Ah Anne, now! I thought we were friends
... anyway I don't so much find the comments objectionable as just slightly silly and very nit-picky. Of course I'd prefer if Moore had been absolutely rigorous with the facts, but a large part of his appeal (and what enables him to preach to the unconverted) is that he is a Stupid White Man.



Chomsky might be more to my taste, but, y'know, I'm an oddball. It's nice for normal people to have one of their own to point out the crazy shit that's going on in the world

 

[pete]

Originally posted by egg_
TITLE: Moore titled the movie Bowling for Columbine because, he suggests, the two kids who shot up Columbine High in Littleton, Colo., went to a 6 a.m. bowling class on the day of the attack.
ACTUALLY: Cool story, but police say it's not true. They say the shooters skipped their bowling class that day.

Maybe i got the wrong end of the stick altogether, but I didn't think the point he was making was that it was the bowling that made them do it.... from the FAQ on the michael moore site:

The title is taken from the little-known fact that the two killers, Dylan and Eric, were supposed to be in bowling class at Columbine High School on the morning of the murders. At least five witnesses, including their teacher, told the police that they saw one or both boys that morning at the bowling alley for their first hour class. Some school and law enforcement officials later maintained that the two boys skipped that class that morning yet no other witness has come forward to say they saw Eric and Dylan anywhere else that morning.

One reason the film is called “Bowling For Columbine” is that, after the massacre, all the pundits and experts started blaming all the usual suspects that are wheeled out for blame whenever a school shooting occurs—evil rock music (in this case Marilyn Manson), violent video games, and bad parenting.

My point is that those scapegoats make about as much sense as blaming bowling. After all, Eric and Dylan were bowlers, they took bowling class at Columbine—was bowling responsible for their evil deeds? If they bowled that morning, did the bowling trigger their desire to commit mass murder? Or, if they skipped their bowling class that morning, did that bring on the massacre? Had they bowled, that may have altered their mood and prevented them from picking up their guns. As you can see, this is all nonsense, just as it is nonsense to blame Marilyn Manson.

And surely the fact that they HAD a fucking "bowling class" as part of their formal education is more relevant than whether they actually attended it that particular morning?

MISSILES: Moore wonders whether kids at Columbine might be driven to violence because of the "weapons of mass destruction" made in Lockheed Martin's assembly plant in Littleton. Moore shows giant rockets being assembled.
ACTUALLY: Lockheed Martin's plant in Littleton doesn't make weapons. It makes space launch vehicles for TV satellites.

So TV satellites get launced by booster rockets with big US AIR FORCE logo's on the side?

From the michael moore website again:

Well, first of all, the Lockheed PR people would disagree with your use of the term, “missile.” They now call their Titan and Atlas missiles on which nuclear warheads were once (and still are but in less numbers) attached, “rockets.” That’s because the Lockheed rockets now take satellites into outer space. Some of them are weather satellites, some are telecommunications satellites, and some are top secret Pentagon projects (like the ones that are launched as spy satellites and others which are used to direct the launching of the nuclear missiles should the USA ever decide to use them).

Lockheed Martin is the largest defense contractor in the United States. They gave us the MX missile and are now heavily involved in developing the nutty Star Wars missile defense shield. They have five facilities in and around the Littleton and Denver area and they are the #1 private employer in the school district that contains Columbine High School.

How did I get their permission to film there? I threatened them with bombing, of course.

WELFARE: Moore places blame for a shooting by a child in Michigan on the work-to-welfare program that prevented the boy's mother from spending time with him.
ACTUALLY: Moore doesn't mention that mom had sent the boy to live in a house where her brother and a friend kept drugs and guns.

Errr... yes, he does, and he also explains why.

BANK: Moore says North Country Bank & Trust in Traverse City, Mich., offered a deal where, "if you opened an account, the bank would give you a gun." He walks into a branch and walks out with a gun.
ACTUALLY: Moore didn't just walk in off the street and get a gun. The transaction was staged for cameras. You have to buy a long-term CD, then go to a gun shop to pick up the weapon after a background check."

So what about the bank clerk who told him quite clearly that they had "300 guns in the vault"?

North Country Bank (with branches throughout Northern Michigan) offers you a wide choice of guns when you open up a certificate of deposit account. In effect, they are giving you all of the interest the account will earn in advance in the form of a gun. The bank is also an authorized federal arms dealer so they can do the quick background check right there at the bank. I put $1,000 in a long-term account, they did the background check, and, within an hour, walked out with my new Weatherby—just as you see it in the film. (I did have a choice of getting a pair of golf clubs or a grandfather clock, but they didn’t have either of those hanging on the wall like they did those three rifles). I learned about the bank’s gun offer from an ad in the local paper that showed a gun across the top with the heading, “ More Bang for Your Buck” from North Country Bank.

 

[Syb]

*yawn* its times like these i wonder why i even bother asiking anything at all......

 

[Pantone247]

Originally posted by Syb
*yawn* its times like these i wonder why i even bother asiking anything at all......

yeah, this is all so boring...

it was a funny film! who cares about the 'issues!'

well said Syb

 

[Knacker]

The Bowling Class in question actually refers to a module that these boys were taking in Hairdressing school.

 

[Hector Grey]

Originally posted by Syb
*yawn* its times like these i wonder why i even bother asiking anything at all......

yeah. you're not smart or nothing.

 

[Anne OMalley]

It has arrived: Day of the Yahoo.

Originally posted by Pantone247
yeah, this is all so boring...

it was a funny film! who cares about the 'issues!'

well said Syb

 

[Syb]

Originally posted by Hector Grey
yeah. you're not smart or nothing.

EW YOURE one to talk hector

 

[Hector Grey]

Originally posted by Syb
EW YOURE one to talk hector

yeah. i can talk. and walk. and at the same time. and these opposable thumbs are just to die for.

 

[Pantone247]

Originally posted by Anne OMalley
It has arrived: Day of the Yahoo.

you're boring me


all I ask of my entertainment is that it gratifys me instantly

 

[snakybus]

jeez, I thought it was a fairly Swift response meself. on fire, me

god Syb is fierce fucking arsey, what? I'm starting to think she's not very nice at all at all.

 

[Anne OMalley]

Grand so. I'll make sure I attach a hand shandy to all future posts.

Originally posted by Pantone247
you're boring me


all I ask of my entertainment is that it gratifys me instantly

 

[Syb]

yea pants, you want me to start acting the bollox again so you can start being a dick to me and i cant take it all offensively and blow uup with rage??? i cant do that if you want!

 

[Hector Grey]

fucking a sybil, fuck.ing.a. don't that this bullying bullshit from these bozos. pricks.

leave the girl alone. she just wants to rock.

 

[Pantone247]

Originally posted by Anne OMalley
Grand so. I'll make sure I attach a hand shandy to all future posts.

ah nothing as crude as that Anne, just make sure your future posts are presented by Davina McCall in front of a live studio auidence, with a phone in interactive section thingy bit, the latest paedo pop sensation preforming soft core porn to their number one single and then all wrapped with some nobody being voted in (or out) of something no one in theor right mind would get wrapped up in...

now that'll keep me interested!