Referendum 2012: It's On (1 Viewer)

[washingcattle]

Well at least all of those FF tds who lost their seats were held accountable.

Would a technocrat government increase taxes on the rich or cut spending on health?

At least now we can organise to fight cutbacks and let Lab tds know they will lose their seats if they continue with this war against ordinary people.

Which is it to be?

A wealth tax or cut services to the disabled?

A higher rate of tax for those earning > €100,000 pa or close hospital wards?

1. Not enough for me I want blood.

2. Who knows ? most likely more from A less from B, taxing the higher earners makes more economic sense than cutting health care spending, cutting health care spending leads to worsening trends in public expenditure, but more than likely certain front line services would be higher priced
i.e
Break a leg, emergency room fee stays the same

come in pissed and get your stomach pumped € 300. Don't fucking do it again.

test for cancer cheap, rather than treating it later vastly more expensive.


Taxing the rich is not carried out by politicians because rich people fund political parties. The ECB is not (directly) run by such special interest groups so do not need to pussy foot around such decisions

3. Cutting services to the disabled flies in the face of basically every single E.U directive, Irelands successive governments have been extremely slow to act on virtually every single directive handed down by the E.U since day one (except the smoking ban) the ECB is directly answerable to the E.U so I can't see them throwing out the rule book to cut a few euros

4. See answer 1.

What you seem to fail in realising is that we've been run into the ground by amateur accountants. Hospitals represent one of the forefront areas in which €1 spent on for example pretentitive tests and care = thousands saved further down the line. Technocrats know this, because it's their fucking job to know this, it's their job to bring in professionals in each field to do feasibility studies before making decisions. Governments are amateurs who do polls before making the decision most likely to keep them in power. It's a patently ridiculous method of running a countries finances.

 

[ann post]

I can't remember the last time I heard such crybabyism.

The name of the treaty was biased?

Even happier About the result when I read hogwash like this.


Yeah, that's right. Hogwash!

So you didnt read it and therefore are not quite certain about just what you are happy about. spose thats a way to be.. grand.

 

[ann post]

I can't remember the last time I heard such crybabyism.

The name of the treaty was biased?

Even happier About the result when I read hogwash like this.


Yeah, that's right. Hogwash!

So you didnt read it and therefore are not quite certain about just what you are happy about. spose thats a way to be.. grand.

 

[Psycho Punk]

1. Not enough for me I want blood.

2. Who knows ? most likely more from A less from B, taxing the higher earners makes more economic sense than cutting health care spending, cutting health care spending leads to worsening trends in public expenditure, but more than likely certain front line services would be higher priced
i.e
Break a leg, emergency room fee stays the same

come in pissed and get your stomach pumped € 300. Don't fucking do it again.

test for cancer cheap, rather than treating it later vastly more expensive.


Taxing the rich is not carried out by politicians because rich people fund political parties. The ECB is not (directly) run by such special interest groups so do not need to pussy foot around such decisions

3. Cutting services to the disabled flies in the face of basically every single E.U directive, Irelands successive governments have been extremely slow to act on virtually every single directive handed down by the E.U since day one (except the smoking ban) the ECB is directly answerable to the E.U so I can't see them throwing out the rule book to cut a few euros

4. See answer 1.

What you seem to fail in realising is that we've been run into the ground by amateur accountants. Hospitals represent one of the forefront areas in which €1 spent on for example pretentitive tests and care = thousands saved further down the line. Technocrats know this, because it's their fucking job to know this, it's their job to bring in professionals in each field to do feasibility studies before making decisions. Governments are amateurs who do polls before making the decision most likely to keep them in power. It's a patently ridiculous method of running a countries finances.

Technocrats will rule on behalf of the rich. Unless you have a revolution first.

Disability support services are being demolished right now. special needs assistants cut. hospital wards closed, centres for handicapped closed.

You cannot be unaware of this. So why do you lie?

Heres another example:

THE GOVERNMENT is examining controversial plans to cease funding respite care services that benefit thousands of families with disabled children each year.

Disability service providers have until now received State funding to provide respite care. These services allow people with disabilities to continue living with their families and in their communities.

However, families also receive a respite care grant from the Department of Social Protection of €1,700 a year. Carers are free to spend this money in whatever way they wish. This grant costs the State about €130 million a year.

Senior political sources say increasing pressure on public finances means the Government can no longer afford to “pay twice” for respite services.

As a result, plans are being drawn up to cease funding disability services providers for respite care. Instead, families would be required to pay for respite care out of their annual grant.


http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2012/0604/1224317208490.html

 

[Psycho Punk]

More:

Home helps in court over cuts
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0604/1224317207802.html
KITTY HOLLAND

THE WORKING conditions of up to 10,000 home helps will be considered by the Labour Court tomorrow.

Trade union Siptu is leading the case of the mainly women workers, whose jobs, the union says, are being outsourced and downgraded while the quality of the service provided was “under constant attack”.

The home helps are employed directly by the Health Service Executive (HSE) or by agencies funded by it.

 

[washingcattle]

All of these measures are being introduced by our elected officials. So I'm confused as to what your point is.

 

[Psycho Punk]

All of these measures are being introduced by our elected officials. So I'm confused as to what your point is.

You were claiming that EU rergulations would prevent such cuts. They are happeniong right now and there are no regulations to prevent the cuts.

Why would technocrats implement policies which favour ordinary people?

Look at the eway that the mass of economists etc think. There has never been a Central Bank forecast or ESRI report that suggested ordinary people should benefit from the economy. Even at the height of the celtic tiger the central bank was demanding wage restraint.

 

[washingcattle]

The ECB have no control right now. They won't have any influence for at least a year.

I never said that the ECB or any technocrat gives a flying fuck about people I said that they would make decisions based on logic rather than based on staying in power.

That call for a wage constraint could have limited the exposure of small to mid level businesses unable to continually increase wages thereby assuring their solvency and going some way towards stabalising inflation, while it also could have limited the number of people earning unrealistically inflated wages which in turn would have limited the number of successful mortgage applications which in turn would have limited the exposure of the banks and made this whole mess a little less messy. See that's logic.

I'm not saying the ECB are going to save us all. I'm saying that in theory at least, if they do their job based on facts and figures and E.U guidelines, instead of opinion polls and keeping the special interests happy. The ECB is , in theory, in a far better position to ignore the back door political contribution and wealthy cronies culture that we currently have. So we might be better off in the long run.

 

[Deadmanposting]

Wow! You demolish his entire argument with a one liner!

You are some guy!

Have you any opinion on the ESM or do you even realise that its separate from what we just voted on?

You are a moron grade one.

I'm not sure where name-calling gets us. I mean, come on.

I will maintain that the name of the treaty was not biased and did not influence the outcome of the referendum, no less than calling the last one 'Lisbon' meant people thought they were voting for moving the country to Iberia.

Maybe we were all mass-tricked. Geddit????

 

[pete]

The Yes campaign had effectively stopped trying to argue that the treaty, as a response to the euro zone crisis, had any intrinsic merits. The only real issue was, as one voter quoted in a vox pop put it so succinctly, “I am going to vote Yes because we need the money and I don’t see us getting it anywhere else”. This is the surreal state we’re in: people voted Yes not in spite of their belief that Government is bullshitting when it says a second bailout is ludicrous but because they believe it is bullshitting.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2012/0605/1224317295825.html

 

[Deadmanposting]

I take his point, but even Fintan knows that a public statement like that from a politician is meaningless.

Does he really expect the Taoiseach or Tanaiste to get up there and say "We're probably going to need another bailout next year, sure what can you do?"

They can't be candid. They have to advocate for the party line, that the current bailout is working. Until it doesn't, then we ask for another one.

Europe is the best insurance policy we have. And we need one badly.

If you want transparency and altruism, look elsewhere, don't ask a politician.

 

[Psycho Punk]

The ECB have no control right now. They won't have any influence for at least a year.

I never said that the ECB or any technocrat gives a flying fuck about people I said that they would make decisions based on logic rather than based on staying in power.

That call for a wage constraint could have limited the exposure of small to mid level businesses unable to continually increase wages thereby assuring their solvency and going some way towards stabalising inflation, while it also could have limited the number of people earning unrealistically inflated wages which in turn would have limited the number of successful mortgage applications which in turn would have limited the exposure of the banks and made this whole mess a little less messy. See that's logic.

I'm not saying the ECB are going to save us all. I'm saying that in theory at least, if they do their job based on facts and figures and E.U guidelines, instead of opinion polls and keeping the special interests happy. The ECB is , in theory, in a far better position to ignore the back door political contribution and wealthy cronies culture that we currently have. So we might be better off in the long run.

their logic is to cut the defecit. Look at what happened to Latvia, orginary people ground into the dust, public services decimated. Look at Greece, thats what happens when the EC & ECB grt their hands on the levers of power.

So ordinary people should have their wages restrained? What about profit restraint and dividend restraint?

Would you have smashed the unions to prevent them from getting wage rises? Look at what really happened during the celtic tiger years rather than the given narrative that we all partied. People didn't want to pay outrageous prices for homes, but they had no choice. Was it a crime for ordianary people to want to have a home of their own?

Was it then a crime to look for higher wages to cover inflation? Ordinary workers, in the private or public sector are not your enemy unless you are really rich. They didn't make millions.

Theres a way to deal with this problem and it doesn't involve handing over power to Burocrats who will crucify ordinary people.

Introduce a wealth tax, a higher tax rate on incomes >€100,000 pa, no public servant, minister, to be paid more than €100,000 pa. End payments to rich farmers, concentrate aid on small farmers. All politicians and public servants bank accounts should be open to scrutiny by an independent commission, it should be a criminal offence with a minimum prison sentence of five years to conceal such an account.

Remember, EU guidelines say nothing about keeping hospitals open or looking after the needs of the disabled. Ask people in Latvia, ask the Greeks.

 

[Psycho Punk]

I'm not sure where name-calling gets us. I mean, come on.

I will maintain that the name of the treaty was not biased and did not influence the outcome of the referendum, no less than calling the last one 'Lisbon' meant people thought they were voting for moving the country to Iberia.

Maybe we were all mass-tricked. Geddit????

Well don't be abusive yourself then.

You really don't come across as being MENSA material.

 

[Psycho Punk]

Alert: Government Attempts to Pass ESM with Minimal Public Debate

Today - Wednesday, & Tomorrow - Thursday The Government will seek Dail approval of:
The Article 136 TFEU amendment to the EU Treaties which authorises the setting up of the permanent Eurozone loan fund, the European Stability Mechanism
+ A motion to approve the ESM Treaty which is authorized by this amendment
+ A motion to approve future Government spending on the ESM,

TODAY - WEDNESDAY, AND TOMORROW - THURSDAY.
A guillotined debate on the second reading of the latter Bill will take place TOMORROW.

This means that the whole business of signing up the Irish State to the ESM Treaty for the Eurozone and committing us to significant expenditure to help bail out Spain and other Eurozone countries in the coming period, could go through all stages in the Oireachtas BY THE END OF NEXT WEEK - with minimal debate in the Irish media over the long-term implications of these steps or awareness of what this all means amongst the general public.

The ESM Treaty can be downloaded from the internet - http://www.european-council.europa.eu/media/582311/05-tesm2.en12.pdf
The relation of the ESM Treaty to the Article 136 TFEU amendment to the EU Treaties authorizing it and to the Fiscal Treaty which Irish voters voted on last Friday is set out in the publication “A Tale of Two Treaties” by Cork solicitors Joe Noonan and Mary Linehan.
This can be downloaded from the internet at: http://taleoftwotreaties.tumblr.com

The letter below to the Ambassadors in Ireland of those EU States which have not yet ratified or approved the ESM Treaty or the Article 136 TFEU amendment sets out the reasons for regarding the ESM Treaty as it stands as illegal under EU law and in violation of the Irish Constitution. reformatted standalone version of this as explanatory text, is available here - http://www.indymedia.ie/article/101936 - "4 Reasons why the ESM Treaty is illegal".

If these measures are pushed through the Oireachtas this week and next in the way the Government proposes, the only way this profound illegality and unconstitutionality can be prevented is by President Higgins referring the relevant Bill to the Supreme Court for adjudication or by Deputy Thomas Pringle's legal team securing a relevant injunction to stop it pending a Court hearing of the issues.

Anthony Coughlan
Director

Copy of letter sent individually to the Ambassadors in Ireland of European Union countries which have not yet ratified the ESM Treaty.
Your Excellency,

I am writing to you on behalf of this organisation to request you to draw your Government’s attention to the fact that the proposal to ratify the European Stability Mechanism Treaty as it stands and to approve the Article 136 TFEU amendment to the EU Treaties as authorizing the Stability Mechanism envisaged in the ESM Treaty, are unlawful under the EU Treaties and are therefore unconstitutional in Ireland and the other EU Member States.

I am writing on similar lines to the Ambassadors to Ireland of the other EU Member States which have not yet ratified the ESM Treaty or approved the Article 136 TFEU amendment.

You are doubtless aware that there are constitutional challenges to the ESM Treaty and the Article 136 TFEU amendment in your own country, in Estonia and in Ireland. In this country Independent Dáil Deputy for Donegal Mr Thomas Pringle has launched a constitutional challenge on these matters which opens in the Irish High Court on 19 June.

We are informed that Deputy Pringle’s lawyers are seeking a constitutional referendum in Ireland on the ESM Treaty. They are also claiming that the EU Treaties should be amended under a different provision of the Art.48 TEU treaty revision procedure than that being currently used if the ESM Treaty as it stands is to be lawfully ratified under EU law.

Deputy Pringle’s legal action is seeking to defend the principle that the EU is an entity governed by the rule of law in face of a political attempt to change the EU treaties by subterfuge and to open a way to transforming the present EMU into a fiscal-political union for the Eurozone. ...

May we respectfully request you therefore to urge your Government not to proceed with your country’s ratification of the ESM Treaty or approval of the Article 136 TFEU authorisation until the Irish Courts have ruled on the issues raised by this constitutional action. The reasons which lead us to believe that the ESM Treaty as it stands is illegal under EU law and unconstitutional in Ireland are the following:-

1.) Article 3 TFEU of the EU Treaties which have been agreed by all 27 EU Member States provides that monetary policy for the countries using the euro is a matter of “exclusive competence” of the EU as a whole. It is not therefore open to the 17 Member States of the Eurozone to attempt effectively to diminish the competence of the Union and to establish among themselves a Stability Mechanism entailing a €700 billion permanent bailout fund to lend to Eurozone governments as envisaged in the ESM Treaty.

This ESM fund, to which Ireland would have to make significant contributions for the indefinite future, would trench profoundly on monetary policy for the euro area. The Stability Mechanism envisaged in the ESM Treaty is effectively an attempt to find a way round the “no bailouts” provision of Article 125 TFEU, whereby it is forbidden for the EU to take on the debt of Member States or for Member States to take on the debt of other Member States. It also breaches other EU Treaty articles.

The ESM Treaty if ratified as it stands would effectively amount to an attempt to open a legal-political path to what France’s President Nicolas Sarkozy called for last November, namely “A Federation for the Eurozone and a Confederation for the rest of the EU”. A radical step of this kind, which would transform the Economic and Monetary Union from what it has been up to now, may only lawfully be taken by means of the “ordinary” treaty amendment procedure of Art.48.2 TEU. It cannot lawfully be done by means of a mere Decision of the European Council of Prime Ministers and Presidents under the “simplified” treaty amendment procedure of Art.48.6 TEU. ...

2.) How can it be lawful for the ESM Treaty to permit a permanent ESM loan fund to be established for the 17 Eurozone countries when the express terms of the Article 136 TFEU amendment, agreed by all 27 EU Governments, authorises a Stability Mechanism only if that is established unanimously by the Eurozone States, as the general provisions of EU law require, viz: “THE Member States whose currency is the euro may establish a stability mechanism to be activated if indispensable to safeguard the stability of the euro area AS A WHOLE ” (emphasis in capitals added)?

The Art.136 amendment to the EU Treaties does not say that “Member States”, meaning SOME of them, may establish a Stability Mechanism, but rather “THE Member States”, namely ALL of them (In French “LES” Membres rather than “DES” Membres).

Yet the ESM Treaty which has been concluded among the 17 provides that the Stability Mechanism it envisages may come into being once States contributing 90% of the capital of the proposed fund have ratified the treaty.

The eight largest Eurozone States, a minority of the 17, can therefore establish this Stability Mechanism, while other Eurozone States that may need assistance from it badly are excluded. How then can this be a Stability Mechanism “for the euro area as a whole”, as Article 136 TFEU, which still has to be constitutionally approved by all 27 EU Member States, requires?

Likewise the so-called "Fiscal Treaty" - the Treaty on Stability, Coordination and Governance in the EMU – on which Irish voters have just voted and which cross-refers to the ESM Treaty, provides that it can come into force when it is ratified by 12 Eurozone Members. Does not this treaty also require unanimous ratification by all 17 Eurozone Members before it can be lawfully binding on them under EU law?

3.) How can the ESM Treaty be lawfully ratified by July 2012, as is the stated intention of the 17 Eurozone governments concerned, when the Article 136 TFEU amendment to the EU Treaties authorising a Stability Mechanism does not have legal effect, once it has been constitutionally approved by all 27 EU Member States, until 1 January 2013?

Does not this mean that any treaty purporting to establish an ESM before 2013 must be legally void? ESM Treaty No.1 which was signed by Eurozone Finance Ministers in July 2011 but was never sent round for ratification, conformed to the 2013 time-frame set by the Art.136 TFEU authorisation, whereas ESM Treaty No. 2 which was signed by EU Ambassadors on 2 February 2012 does not.

This shows again how the exigencies of a political response to the financial crisis by some Eurozone States puts them in breach of EU law and therefore of the Irish Constitution.

4. ) EU Member States may only sign international treaties that are compatible with EU law. The EU Court of Justice has made clear that intergovernmental agreements cannot affect the allocation of responsibilities defined in the EU Treaties. The provisions of the ESM Treaty and the Fiscal Treaty which involve the EU Commission and Court of Justice in the implementation of the proposed ESM go well beyond what is permissible under the current EU treaties and are therefore unlawful. ...

Anthony Coughlan
Director
http://www.nationalplatform.org

 

[Deadmanposting]

Well don't be abusive yourself then.

You really don't come across as being MENSA material.

An idea can be dumb and it's okay to say so. I didn't call anyone a name or get personal.

Poor losers it seems.

Good luck with your insult-fest here.

 

[Psycho Punk]

An idea can be dumb and it's okay to say so. I didn't call anyone a name or get personal.

Poor losers it seems.

Good luck with your insult-fest here.

Well imho you are dumb and its ok to say so.

You called people crybabys, don't be surprised if people respond. Just don't cry about it.

 

[Unicron]

On a related note to the business over the prejudicial name of the treaty, I dislike the term "wealth tax", though I do agree with a higher band being introduced for high earners.

 

[Deadmanposting]

Well imho you are dumb and its ok to say so.

You called people crybabys, don't be surprised if people respond. Just don't cry about it.

That's three posts in a row where you've got personal and used insults.

I haven't called anyone anything, not one time. I attacked ideas and notions, not people.

Good luck to you.

 

[Psycho Punk]

Thats three posts in a row you tried to pretend you didn't insult people. You called people crybabys. That was in direct reponse to a post about the methods used by the Yes side. Your posts don't disappear, its there for people to see.

Telling lies like you do isn't going to convince anyone.

If you don't want to be insulted then don't insult people.

But seeing as you insult people, don't cry if people respond to you in kind.

 

[Psycho Punk]

Having taken a breather following the referendum campaign, we’re back, with a picket outside the Dail for half an hour on Tuesday next commencing at 1:30 sharp. So please turn up on time if at all possible as we need the maximum number at 1:30.

On Tuesday, the Dail will debate the European Communities Bill with the intention of approving the amendment to Article 136 of the EU treaties (TFEU). This is the amendment on which the government could exercise a veto – for example, in order to extract concessions on the bail-out loan.

On Tuesday also, Thomas Pringle commences his case in the High Court at 10:30, challenging the constitutionality of approving this amendment and of adopting the ESM (European Stability Mechanism), a measure which the government plans to enact on Wednesday next. The public can attend the court proceedings.

Our picket will call for the government to exercise the veto on the amendment to Article 136 and to hold a referendum on the ESM. Our reasons for the latter call may be found in our pamphlet at http://www.people.ie/eu/esmref2.pdf

Please do your best to turn up – if even for a short period.

People’s Movement Picket

We want a referendum on the ESM!

Veto the amendment to Article 136!

1:30 on Tuesday 19th June outside Dail Eireann
(Kildare St. entrance)

Placards will be provided