Feminist Walking Tour - March 8th (7 Viewers)

[broken arm]

cease
Pronunciation verb, ceased, ceas·ing, noun –verb (used without object)
1.to stop; discontinue: Not all medieval beliefs have ceased to exist.
2.to come to an end: At last the war has ceased.
3.Obsolete. to pass away; die out. –verb (used with object)

you be surprised.

 

[Janer]

Driving Miss Daisy.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7159077.stm

 

[Cormcolash]

As far as I'm concerned, sexism is something that is occurs towards both men and women.
I have no problem with feminism at all, except that I feel modern day feminism has moved more and more towards "radical" views which in fact result in sexism towards men. This hasn't happened so much in Ireland fortunately, but it is quite common in some other countries, and has been going on for over 20 years.
I feel that feminism is about women being equal to men, and that is great, but that a lot of the radical feminism of which I speak in fact excludes/discriminates against men, and therefore shouldn't be referred to as feminism at all.
Also, I feel that modern feminism to a large extent completely ignores the methods by which men are discriminated against.
I suspect that a lot of people that have problems with modern feminism are uncomfortable with it for the same or similar reasons as above.
Also I pretty much agree with everything Oly has been saying, and most of the women I have actually talked to on a 1 to 1 basis on the subject seem to have similar views.

I think that sexism in society is mainly caused by the fact that we live in a shit capitalist system. It's this money-based way that the world is run that in my opinion is responsible for most of the sociological problems we experience. I don't buy the whole gender issues arguments as I think gender only applies to you if you let it be applied to you.
Therefore I feel that to focus your efforts on a feminist agenda is totally missing the big picture, and I think it can easily lead to segregation from other groups that are trying to fight the overall problem.

As an example of what I'm saying, I think it's totally pointless to argue that wage inequality is an example of sexism and should therefore be combatted. I think this because by fighting for equal wages for women, you are simply pandering to the capitalist system, which is that people should have to work their lives away just to earn money to survive, and therefore that is a completely pointless fight and is if anything counter productive in the fight against Capitalism.
You would for instance be much better off by fighting for higher wages for all the people who are doing shit jobs and scraping by on minimum wage. Every long-term job I've ever had has been on a completely shit wage, and every woman doing the same job as me has been earning the same shit wage as me, and that's something much more worth fighting.

I think that in the Western world, now that there is much less inequality between men and women than there was in history, you would be much better fighting against the system as a whole and not focusing on purely feminist issues, and I don't believe that modern feminism does this.
I think there is plenty of room to fight for female equality in many other countries, as Oly has pointed out, and if you want to do that you should first focus on those countries where the situation is far far worse.
I don't have the answers to the problems of society myself, but I really think that a lot of the issues on which most modern feminism (which I consider to be more radical-oriented than equality-based) focuses doesn't really help at all, particulary in countries where there is less of a divide between men and women.

This is not the total sum of my beliefs. It's easy to take any of that out of context, and I think that a large part of the arguments and issues on this thread are something that have to be taken in context, as broken arm kind of pointed out. There'll probably be some pointless attempts at taking my above views out of context or some such nonsense, whatever.

Finally, to s/indie Tom! sorry if I offended you, I was taking the piss a bit which was unnecessary, although I still don't agree with you obviously.
I stand by replies to other people though as they are the facts as I see them.

 

[the strange guy]

I'll spare someone else the effort.

Corm, you're wrong and you're a grotesquely ugly freak!
Thanks.

Seriously though, I think that when you said:

I consider (modern feminism) to be more radical-oriented than equality-based

you hit the nail on the head.

 

[nofunchee]

THREAD NOT DEAD SHOCKER!!!

I don't buy the whole gender issues arguments as I think gender only applies to you if you let it be applied to you.

please explain.

What kind of point is this meant to be? That in order to promote equality between the sexes, men should be attacked by women just as often as women are attacked by men? What the fuck kind of argument is that?

*cough* king of taking people out of context *cough*


on the radical feminism thing – radical feminists are the ones that focus on radical change, rather than reform. some of them are responsible for looking at the wider angle that you are alluding to when you talk about dropping gender issues and taking on ‘the system’. stop pretending you know all about the history of feminism.

 

[the strange guy]

stop pretending you know all about the history of feminism.

Dunchee=King of Feminist History

 

[nooleen]

it's all a scam to score women, just like heath ledger in 10 things i hate about you.

 

[broken arm]

has anyone got this book?

Gender
http://www.polity.co.uk/book.asp?ref=9780745627151

 

[ailbhe]

come on dunchee, we all know your only in it for the pussy!

 

[Willie Willions]

A must read:

 

[nooleen]

"boobies won't protect you against SCUM"

 

[BLITZED]

come on dunchee, we all know your only in it for the pussy!

i know who u are

 

[ailbhe]

dunchee's got a backward case of penis envy.

 

[BLITZED]

inverted penis?

 

[D0njo]

As far as I'm concerned, sexism is something that is occurs towards both men and women.
I have no problem with feminism at all, except that I feel modern day feminism has moved more and more towards "radical" views which in fact result in sexism towards men. This hasn't happened so much in Ireland fortunately, but it is quite common in some other countries, and has been going on for over 20 years.
I feel that feminism is about women being equal to men, and that is great, but that a lot of the radical feminism of which I speak in fact excludes/discriminates against men, and therefore shouldn't be referred to as feminism at all.
Also, I feel that modern feminism to a large extent completely ignores the methods by which men are discriminated against.
I suspect that a lot of people that have problems with modern feminism are uncomfortable with it for the same or similar reasons as above.
Also I pretty much agree with everything Oly has been saying, and most of the women I have actually talked to on a 1 to 1 basis on the subject seem to have similar views.

I think that sexism in society is mainly caused by the fact that we live in a shit capitalist system. It's this money-based way that the world is run that in my opinion is responsible for most of the sociological problems we experience. I don't buy the whole gender issues arguments as I think gender only applies to you if you let it be applied to you.
Therefore I feel that to focus your efforts on a feminist agenda is totally missing the big picture, and I think it can easily lead to segregation from other groups that are trying to fight the overall problem.

As an example of what I'm saying, I think it's totally pointless to argue that wage inequality is an example of sexism and should therefore be combatted. I think this because by fighting for equal wages for women, you are simply pandering to the capitalist system, which is that people should have to work their lives away just to earn money to survive, and therefore that is a completely pointless fight and is if anything counter productive in the fight against Capitalism.
You would for instance be much better off by fighting for higher wages for all the people who are doing shit jobs and scraping by on minimum wage. Every long-term job I've ever had has been on a completely shit wage, and every woman doing the same job as me has been earning the same shit wage as me, and that's something much more worth fighting.

I think that in the Western world, now that there is much less inequality between men and women than there was in history, you would be much better fighting against the system as a whole and not focusing on purely feminist issues, and I don't believe that modern feminism does this.
I think there is plenty of room to fight for female equality in many other countries, as Oly has pointed out, and if you want to do that you should first focus on those countries where the situation is far far worse.
I don't have the answers to the problems of society myself, but I really think that a lot of the issues on which most modern feminism (which I consider to be more radical-oriented than equality-based) focuses doesn't really help at all, particulary in countries where there is less of a divide between men and women.

This is not the total sum of my beliefs. It's easy to take any of that out of context, and I think that a large part of the arguments and issues on this thread are something that have to be taken in context, as broken arm kind of pointed out. There'll probably be some pointless attempts at taking my above views out of context or some such nonsense, whatever.

Finally, to s/indie Tom! sorry if I offended you, I was taking the piss a bit which was unnecessary, although I still don't agree with you obviously.
I stand by replies to other people though as they are the facts as I see them.

This is one of the BREAST and well informed thought out arguments on any subject you can think of to do with most things, politics and sociology mostly, I have ever seen in my entire long life up to this point, including the argument about wether the bass on seinfeld is real or midi, that I am inclined to agree whole heartedly with you, AND in consequence, Oly too.


Oh wait, I've gone backwards again.

 

[Willie Willions]

I don't buy the whole gender issues arguments as I think gender only applies to you if you let it be applied to you.

What?!? Explain that in case I've mis-interpreted.

 

[Buzzo]

I have no problem with feminism at all, except that I feel modern day feminism has moved more and more towards "radical" views which in fact result in sexism towards men. This hasn't happened so much in Ireland fortunately, but it is quite common in some other countries, and has been going on for over 20 years.

Can you give me some examples? What other countries, and what happened 20 years ago to mark the beginning of this? It sounds like you've been reading up on this stuff .... can you tell me what you've been reading? I'm totally open to learning here, for serious. Myself, I read a few journals, and have read lots of books on feminist and social justice issues. I'm doing a thesis on criminalised women as victims of crime, I meet regularly with other feminist women to discuss this shit so as you can imagine, I have a hunger for learning about these issues that I care deeply about. I'm not trying to blow my own brain trumpet or feminist trumpet by listing what I do or read , I'm just trying to point out that despite the extent that I read, discuss and invest myself in this area, I just don't seem to encounter this aspect of it that you're talking about in literature or in real life. I know LOADS of feminists, and NONE of them are anti-men. Maybe we have different experiences but I'm genuinely interested to hear about yours.

I think that sexism in society is mainly caused by the fact that we live in a shit capitalist system. It's this money-based way that the world is run that in my opinion is responsible for most of the sociological problems we experience.

But sexism exists in places that don't have capitalist economies, and has been ubiquitous throughout history, through every type of economy, in every type of state. Through prosperous times, in depressions, throughout war. I don't really get how you can blame sexism on capitalism. Women, no matter where you go or what time in history you look at, are poorer and have fewer rights than men.

I think there is plenty of room to fight for female equality in many other countries, as Oly has pointed out, and if you want to do that you should first focus on those countries where the situation is far far worse.

I disagree. Do you think it's pointless to fight for labour rights here because there are children working in bad conditions in factories in China? Do you think we shouldn't try to solve homelessness here because there are infinitely more people living in sewers in Russia? Many feminists engaged in the fight for equality in Ireland are also supporters, if not activists in human rights organisations that fight for women's rights abroad. It's not a case of having to choose one or the other. Why are you so uncomfortable with the thought of women fighting for equality here? It's funny that so many people accept the need for feminism, as long as it's in another place, or another time.

 

[D0njo]

It's a classic-clear-cut-case commonly know as "The Fear of Fannies", Amebix had a song about it

 

[broken arm]

I have no problem with feminism at all, except that I feel modern day feminism h as moved more and more towards "radical" views which in fact result in sexism towards men. This hasn't happened so much in Ireland fortunately, but it is quite common in some other countries, and has been going on for over 20 years.

the radical v.s. incremental (equality) argument is interesting - from a male perspective. what degree of radicalism makes you uncomfortable? Do you think there is a general crisis of masculinity? If so, is this the fault of feminism or broader processes of disempowerment and disengagement of the human?

I am not a sociologist so i'm probably talking shite again.

I think that sexism in society is mainly caused by the fact that we live in a shit capitalist system.

are you saying the current form of capitalism is bad or capitalism itself is bad?

a true capitalist would probably disagree with you and say that it doesn't matter what age, sex, race you are as long as you contribute to growth of the system of production. The reality is that capitalism operates within social constructions and therfore reflects other potentially human factors such as greed, violence, ignorance and probably sexism etc. This is what I was trying to get at with the meta-paradigm thing (which i know postmodernists dispute). And if this is the case MAYBE much of the focus of discussion by feminists is mis-directed and will invariable create conflict in a high percentage of males.

 

[Froog]

so its not cool to pinch women's bums then?