What Book Did You Read Last Night??? (4 Viewers)

[Denny Oubidoux]

i liked the forever war. if i recall correctly the writing is kinda shite but the story carries it through

 

[jonah]

I'm only about 40 pages in so I'll comment further on that later, but I am so terribly intruiged by it all thus far. Theres something annoying about Mandella's voice, and I wasn't quite sure if it was the character or the writing, but I've not noticed any gaping wounds so far.

 

[David Kronenbourg]

re-reading this. one of my favourite books of the decade

 

[Jill Hives]

I didn't interpret it as a dig. I replied like this because you gave (what I view as) an very inaccurate answer to a question John asked directly of me. I should probably state at this point that I have no particular gripe with children's literature, or indeed erotica. I just happen to strongly believe that to categorize these books in this way, is simply inaccurate, reductive and misleading.
I haven't read 'Nory' in a couple of years so I'm not going to risk summarizing off the top of my head, but it's certainly not children's fiction, and it's not young adult fiction either. Here's what's on the blurb of my Vintage paperback edition:

"The Everlasting Story of Nory is a funny, captivating, complicated book for grown-ups about the wisdom and strangeness that can exist in a child's mind."

From what I recall, I honestly don't think a decent, attentive reading of the novel could lead to any other conclusion.
The "FACT" that "most" libraries would catalogue a book a certain way is pretty meaningless to be honest, believe me, I know quite a bit about the eccentricities and imperfections of library cataloguing systems. Is 'What Maisie Knew' (very probably an influence on 'Nory') catalogued as young adult fiction? Is 'Lady Chatterley's Lover' catalogued under erotica? And as for wildly varying subject matter, surely subject matter is one of the least relevant things when it comes to fiction? I know it's way, way down, at the point of near irrelevance on my list of considerations.
I think you need to stop approaching it (literature) as a librarian, and instead, approach it as the sensible reader I'm sure you really are.

I hope none of this comes off as aggressive/over-earnest/patronizing (although I must say your own comment: "Not all childrens books have pictures and rhyme" is itself *extremely* patronizing), it's really not meant to be, tone is so tricky here though... and I'm quite tired...excuses, excuses...

Well, we can agree to disagree then. For a one-sentence statement commenting on his spectrum, I stand by it. If I were writing an essay about his work I would no doubt go into more detail but I wasn’t. I consider the Fermata to be erotic fiction just as I would science fiction. Agreed, erotic literature as a genre is very broad but so is any genre by definition. It’s just a loose set of guidelines. Would I consider some works of D.H. Lawrence, Nin, or Miller to be erotic fiction? Yes, I would. Would I be the only one? No. Some might protest the lack of specification in library cataloguing but it serves a purpose, bringing ‘like’ (even if broadly) items together. It’s not that I need to put everything into a category rather I was just illustrating that many would also consider it as such when commenting on genre.

As for Nory, I still consider that young adult fiction despite what the book-jacket says. And yes, I read it attentively. Perhaps, I was a bit hasty with ‘childrens’ because I don’t see many up to the age of 12 sitting down to read it (although I know my 9 year old nephew could read and comprehend the concepts but he’s a pretty clever little guy) however it could be on any YA reading list. Just because it wasn’t marketed YA (as that’s a fairly recent thing) doesn’t mean it wouldn’t be consider as such. Oliver Twist, Catcher in the Rye, On the Road, Huck Finn, Little Women, The Outsiders… all considered young adult books.

Baker’s books go from highly sexual and voyeuristic to the curious mindset of a child, not to mention all that’s in between. It’s a large span. That was my point and despite our difference in terminology people got the gist, which can only really be offered from one sentence.

 

[Lili Marlene]

blah blah blah blah The Outsiders… blah blah blah

Did you study S.E. Hinton in school? I notice the Outsiders is often on US curriculums. I'd love to have studied her in school. I think Rumblefish might be my favourite book ever

 

[Jill Hives]

Did you study S.E. Hinton in school? I notice the Outsiders is often on US curriculums. I'd love to have studied her in school. I think Rumblefish might be my favourite book ever

Yep. On the reading lists. I loved Rumblefish.

 

[hugh]

I hope none of this comes off as aggressive/over-earnest/patronizing ...

It does.

 

[magicbastarder]

started "the strangest man", a bio of paul dirac, recently. good so far, but not outstanding. kinda hard to get an insight into someone who was so withdrawn,

 

[St. Fechin]

Well, we can agree to disagree then. For a one-sentence statement commenting on his spectrum, I stand by it. If I were writing an essay about his work I would no doubt go into more detail but I wasn’t. I consider the Fermata to be erotic fiction just as I would science fiction. Agreed, erotic literature as a genre is very broad but so is any genre by definition. It’s just a loose set of guidelines. Would I consider some works of D.H. Lawrence, Nin, or Miller to be erotic fiction? Yes, I would. Would I be the only one? No. Some might protest the lack of specification in library cataloguing but it serves a purpose, bringing ‘like’ (even if broadly) items together. It’s not that I need to put everything into a category rather I was just illustrating that many would also consider it as such when commenting on genre.

As for Nory, I still consider that young adult fiction despite what the book-jacket says. And yes, I read it attentively. Perhaps, I was a bit hasty with ‘childrens’ because I don’t see many up to the age of 12 sitting down to read it (although I know my 9 year old nephew could read and comprehend the concepts but he’s a pretty clever little guy) however it could be on any YA reading list. Just because it wasn’t marketed YA (as that’s a fairly recent thing) doesn’t mean it wouldn’t be consider as such. Oliver Twist, Catcher in the Rye, On the Road, Huck Finn, Little Women, The Outsiders… all considered young adult books.

Baker’s books go from highly sexual and voyeuristic to the curious mindset of a child, not to mention all that’s in between. It’s a large span. That was my point and despite our difference in terminology people got the gist, which can only really be offered from one sentence.

I'm sorry, I'm going to have to come in here again.
I'm afraid our disagreement is much more than a simple difference of terminology. I'll elaborate...

First of all, you say you stand by your "one-sentence statement commenting on his spectrum", the fact is, you simply weren't asked for such a statement. The original question was 'tell me about Nicholson Baker'? Answering such a question by focusing on an author's subject matter in the manner you did does not even get close to "the gist" of what the author or work in question is like; what the experience of reading them is like. Honing in heavily on the subject matter is very simplistic in my opinion. 'I like books about cars', 'Moby Dick is about a whale' or like Woody Allen's speedreader on 'War And Peace': "It was about some Russians." Surely what we experience most saliently in a writer is their use of language, prose style; their use of plot; character etc?
The 'how' is important, not the 'what'. Anyone can do the 'what'. The 'how' makes a writer unique. I believe Baker to be particularly illustrative of this principle.
Also, there's a lot of daylight between an (inaccurate) one sentence statement and an essay.

But putting questions of relevance aside for a moment, you could still have answered reasonably accurately on the 'what'. Instead you chose to focus on Baker's most contrasting, extreme subject matter, thus creating a false 'spectrum' and sidetracking the discussion to 2 or 3 of of his 8 novels (not to mention his non-fiction). This gave a misleading impression I think.
If you'd said for example that he runs the gamut from writing about the minutiae of daily life (e.g. shoe-laces and drinking straws in The Mezzanine) to fantastical sexual activity (The 'time freezing' in 'The Fermata') that would maybe have been more representative, but again, it doesn't really tell you much about what reading him is actually like. In any case, writing about sex and childhood in separate books isn't really that unusual, is it? Picking up on it is boringly obvious, and, like I say misleading. We were all 9 years old, we all have some sort of a sex life. Baker is really just an unflinching realist, and his skill as a writer lies in his ability to surprise with his verbal precision and hold your interest whatever the subject matter, even if it is banal, fantastic or unappealing. (I know I'm sort of working on the assumption here that you've read all his novels, that might be unfair I dunno, but certainly if 'The Fermata' and 'Nory' are the only Baker novels you've read, you probably weren't the right person to answer the question.)

However, my real gripe (at least initially), was that you referred to the novels in question by specific terms: "children's books" and "erotica". As I said last time, I simply cannot agree that these novels slot in these sorts of categories. You're right, we'll never agree fully on how to describe them. But these particular terms you used here (the terms I corrected you on) refer to very well recognized genres, with associated conventions and, thus create certain expectations for the reader. These expectations will not be met by Baker. And I really cannot believe that 'Vox' or 'The Fermata' were written with the intentions associated with writing "erotica". Anyway, this all gives the impression that Baker hops from genre to genre at will. He doesn't, he's simply not that kind of writer. Like I said above, there's a very consistent, distinctive and original style at work in all his novels. Including 'Nory'.

Finally, I wasn't really suggesting that you *need* to put everything in a category, but you do appear to have an over-dependence on the 'authority' of 'The Library' (you also appear to enjoy wielding this 'authority' in your arguments). To me such 'authority' is pretty limited. Librarians aren't literary critics, and they aren't necessarily better informed in literary matters than their customers or indeed the rest of the public. To take a library convention (i.e. cataloguing standards) adopted in the past for the purposes of expediency, and attempt to use it to settle an argument in an informal literary discussion is totally inappropriate.

Perhaps it's worth noting that the original question was also not 'tell me where can I expect to find Nicholson Baker's books in a library?'

 

[St. Fechin]

double post

 

[St. Fechin]

It does.

Really??? damn...

 

[Denny Oubidoux]

Really??? damn...

i didnt think so for the original post but now... heh heh

 

[St. Fechin]

i didnt think so for the original post but now... heh heh

Hey, Jill Hives started the naive condescension pretty much straight away in her reply to my gentle correction, with her 'FACTS' and her "Not all childrens books have pictures and rhyme". And if I'm honest that's probably been a motivation factor in my attempt to drag Thumped back to 2006, but having posted all the above I'm willing to leave it at that now and forget all about it.

 

[Jill Hives]

Sake. It's a message board where people make quick posts in between doing work. I didn't realize we all had to write epic in depth analysis of each writer's work to be worthy of answering a question. And yes, I have read more than two of his books. Nor do I think librarians are literary critics. You're missing my point. When making a quick reference (which I did) using subject genres of where the book is commonly placed and referred is valid, imho. Even if you don't personally agree with it yourself. Erotic literature is just not literature written to arouse the reader. Tropic of Cancer, imho, was not written with the purpose to arouse nevertheless it does for most and is considered erotic. How do you categorize and discuss music? Do you create all these specific sub genres to fully describe each band? On a personal note, I do find the fact that the examples used published back to back extremely interesting. To each his or her own.


Back to
What Book Did You Read Last Night???

Continuing on with books I've always meant to read but never did...

 

[coast to coast]

Trying to politely put across an argument makes you seem condescending. Being glib and argumentative makes you thumped!

 

[Moods For Mallards]

Just to focus on a small part of this seismic row: to dismiss the importance of subject matter so thoroughly is extremely decadent. Enjoy the temptations of style, St. Fechin. I hope they console you in hell.

 

[Lili Marlene]

How do you categorize and discuss music? Do you create all these specific sub genres to fully describe each band?

Don't try discussing music with St. Fechin, believe me.

On a personal note, I do find the fact that the examples used published back to back extremely interesting. To each his or her own.

Psh, in your opinion

Back to
What Book Did You Read Last Night???

Continuing on with books I've always meant to read but never did...

I read half of that last year, what's the second half like?

Just to focus on a small part of this seismic row: to dismiss the importance of subject matter so thoroughly is extremely decadent. Enjoy the temptations of style, St. Fechin. I hope they console you in hell.

You're an ill-educated woodcutter right?



anyway,

I read this thingy

which was very good, if a bit.... episodic? I think Terry Pratchett writes this kind of story in a more involving and overall better way. Plus it ends with a quote from Tori Amos FFS

 

[jonah]

I loved The Graveyard book so, so very much. It was full of absolutely great characters, and it absolutely terrified me. I liked the episodic nature, it felt like a book of short stories, but I can see where you're coming from, despite not being a fan of Pratchett.

That said the Tori Amos thing was sickening. She keep popping up on his books, she's quoted on the back of Neverwhere too.

 

[Moods For Mallards]

You're an ill-educated woodcutter right?

I'm a respected craftsman, known for my sturdy jaw.

 

[Lili Marlene]

I loved The Graveyard book so, so very much. It was full of absolutely great characters, and it absolutely terrified me. I liked the episodic nature, it felt like a book of short stories, but I can see where you're coming from, despite not being a fan of Pratchett.

That said the Tori Amos thing was sickening. She keep popping up on his books, she's quoted on the back of Neverwhere too.

Yeah, I was a bit harsh on it there. I really really liked it, lovely ending. I just have a niggling feeling that it could have been better