this auld wan that's up the duff (1 Viewer)

[pete]

I think there should have to be some legal recourse for stuff like this, but there is a big difference between a wallet and a womb. Where I think these issues actually collide is that -- as so many things described using generalisations do -- the maintenance issue treats a man as just a wallet, and the reproductive rights laws treat a woman as just a womb. People are reduced to very clear cut categories that don't reflect the complex realities of people's lives.

The hugest difference, however, is that maintenance involves a child that exists already. It seems best to settle maintenance issues out of court because clearly, the less animosity there is between two parents, the better for the child because the child is alive and breathing and at least somewhat suceptible to the effects of his or her parents' relationship with each other.

The reduction of people to simple gender categories of wallet/womb are bad for everyone, but they are issues to be deal with totally separately in a legal sense. I think that, as a society and as a collection of individuals who make up that society, everyone has a responsibility to facilitate parenting. I mean, it's still widely seen as a woman's issue to balance career and family. The reality is that it's everyone's issue. But just like the active parental duties are often seen as the woman's by default, the breadwinning duties are easily seen as the man's by default.

Which is why I don't just think -- I know -- that we'll never get anywhere until we can actually talk about the ways that nice neat gender categories affect people's realities. Just because I have been talking about how women are perceived as 'whores and liars' (I know that sounds extreme, but if there were a prevailing view of women as full human beings without exception, it would be impossible for the illegal sex trade to exist), there are dangerous perceptions of men that can't be ignored (e.g., that men should have voracious sex drives, that men should be the bigger earners, the horrendous icky thing known as 'presenteeism' that can preclude a healthy 'work-life balance').

But it's not just up to the government to do. Workplaces have to facilitate it, and maybe the government is going to have to force them to do it, but they won't do it until actual people lobby the government for this kinds of change. This is why I think it's disappointing that the fathers' rights groups are often so hostile to women's rights groups. There are a lot of areas in which their/our concerns actually complement each other. But sadly, when you have freaks like John Waters as your misogynist spokestwat, that's not going to be easy.

OH FUCK. I told myself I was going to stay off this thread today. Pete, could you pass a law that I have to be protected from myself so that I don't post on this thread until I've made up for the lost work time that I stupidly did to myself. I am WEAK. JUST LIKE A WOMAN, EH?

But the point was that in a hypothetical situation where a woman is forced to give birth to a child she doesn't want, and she can be forced to financially support it, this would be considered to be a very bad thing indeed.

Yet this is the situation men are currently in right now - once pregnancy occurs they have no choice in the matter, and can be forced to support that child for 18 years. Now I imagine that like me, most people think this is perfectly fair based on the principle of taking responsibility for your actions... So how are the two reconciled?

 

[broken arm]

t can happen that people boil things down a little when replying....

bullets points are the way forward

• there is no solution
• but revolution

 

[broken arm]

Now I imagine that like me, most people think this is perfectly fair based on the principle of taking responsibility for your actions...

but if a man decided he didn't want the responsibility does he have a get out clause like, say, abortion.

now where is that can of worms.

 

[broken arm]

actually, ignore me. i'm not adding but stoking.

 

[JohnnyRaz]

but if a man decided he didn't want the responsibility does he have a get out clause like, say, abortion.

now where is that can of worms.

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59 feckin pages can ye not just agree to disagree! I never want to hear or read the words 'womb' 'rights' or 'legislate' again!

 

[La La]

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59 feckin pages can ye not just agree to disagree! I never want to hear or read the words 'womb' 'rights' or 'legislate' again!

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[oh shit]

But the point was that in a hypothetical situation where a woman is forced to give birth to a child she doesn't want, and she can be forced to financially support it, this would be considered to be a very bad thing indeed.

Yet this is the situation men are currently in right now - once pregnancy occurs they have no choice in the matter, and can be forced to support that child for 18 years. Now I imagine that like me, most people think this is perfectly fair based on the principle of taking responsibility for your actions... So how are the two reconciled?

isn't it more accurate to say that both parents are currently forced to pay for their children - wanted or otherwise? it's not just men.

 

[broken arm]

gotta get my krills

 

[glen]

Ugh, sprouts.

 

[La La]

aaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhh.


morning guys! what a lovely day. who's in the red corner? who's in the blue?

nevermind. let's get this discussion staaahhhhted!!!!!!!!

see you on page 198.

 

[jane]

isn't it more accurate to say that both parents are currently forced to pay for their children - wanted or otherwise? it's not just men.

Yes, it is accurate to say that.

And Pete, I agree with you that the problem of anyone being forced to support children they didn't ask for is one that has to be discussed, but what I'm saying is that we can't even begin to talk about that issue until we stop pitting men and women against each other as enemies. If parenting were made easier, if reproductive rights were guaranteed, I think the mere fact that we were closer to gender equity would make this discussion, if not easier, than, er, 'less impossible'.

It might not seem like I'm addressing your question, but the fact is, even that hypothetical situation can't really be discussed unless and until we can deal with some of these deeper issues. And really, I have no idea how the two can be reconciled.

JohnnyRaz, I'm sorry that 'womb rights' etc etc bore you, but just because you're bored of discussions about a problem doesn't mean it's going to go away. Why don't you go to the Bored In Work thread?

 

[Dr Winston Umbogo]

what about shemales? do they deserve extra rights? has anyone thought of the shemales? anybody?

 

[egg_]

That's true. I imagine, like you said above, that part of it is that I have been trying very hard to fight my corner. But why should it take such extremes of effort to be heard at all? I know there is some degree of the thread growing quickly, and lots of ideas being thrown out at once, but I still find it a little troubling.

Jane! Enough! Kirstie's right:

ah I think it's just we swamped ro with the weight of our disagreement and he ended up mostly debating with you is all. Lots of us, only one of him!

 

[glen]

morning guys! what a lovely day. who's in the red corner? who's in the blue?.

Jane has just conceded to all of Ro's points after he confessed to being a born again christian. Kirstie's trying to split them up by saying Ro is a gay and his avatar is a chocolate goblin (secret gay code for being a secret gay) and loads of other people are just copying and pasting in Jane's posts to make themselves seem like really fast typers.

 

[jane]

Jane! Enough! Kirstie's right:

Actually, I think she does have a point, and that probably explains most of it, but I do wonder why it is that when the challenge was presented by a Known Evil Woman, it was all, "Go away. Shut up." but when a man presented them, it was all, "Ooooh, how articulate of you. Jolly good, sir."

Whatever about everything else, that's still pretty annoying.

 

[broken arm]

.............we can't even begin to talk about that issue until we stop pitting men and women against each other as enemies..........can't really be discussed unless and until we can deal with some of these deeper issues. And really, I have no idea how the two can be reconciled.

is it possible that having the discussion in the context of reproductive rights, fathers rights, child rights is the problem because it creates the trenched divisions that you are talking about?

what did einstein say about solving a problem with the same thinking that brought you into the situation in the first place?

 

[snakybus]

hey Pete, can't the kid be given up for adoption? I don't get what you're on about.

And can I just take a moment to say that I read everything Wormo, Mazzianne and Kirstie said and they all made good points - since ye bitches think yer being ignored.

 

[jane]

is it possible that having the discussion in the context of reproductive rights, fathers rights, child rights is the problem because it creates the trenched divisions that you are talking about?

what did einstein say about solving a problem with the same thinking that brought you into the situation in the first place?

Sorry, I'm not sure exactly what you mean. Do you mean that children's rights need to be accounted for? If so, yes -- definitely. Just as women aren't just wombs, children aren't just some sort of uteran produce (except baby jesus), and the dangerous thing here is getting back into the 'is it or isn't it a person' inside the womb, and again, conflating the two issues. But I'm still not sure what exactly you're getting at...

 

[RSJ]

Um, i presume he meant that any battle of womens rights versus mens rights (or precieved battle) fought by women and men (or percieved men or women) (and glen) is going to bring up divisions that cause more divisions. Or something.

 

[broken arm]

Sorry, I'm not sure exactly what you mean. Do you mean that children's rights need to be accounted for? If so, yes -- definitely. Just as women aren't just wombs, children aren't just some sort of uteran produce (except baby jesus), and the dangerous thing here is getting back into the 'is it or isn't it a person' inside the womb, and again, conflating the two issues. But I'm still not sure what exactly you're getting at...

i'm just suggesting that possibly the framing of the discussion in the context of some particular "right" is causing the pitting of man against woman. which is causing the tension, which is making people lose sight of what they are actually talking about.

i still think bullet points are a good idea.