The Death of Marco Pantani (1 Viewer)

[brianoak]

A book I almost wish I hadnt read.
Amazing athlete but had some serious mental problems.He achieved so much in a tiny space of time but really couldnt hold himself together.

I remember seeing him in the tour and the Giro when I was younger but only after reading this did I realise how much shit he had going on in his head....

The circumstances and description of how and where he died is particularly gruesome and sad.

Anyone else bar Davey read this?

edit- the bit about the doctor who did his autospsy claiming therewas no evidence of EPO abuse i.e kidney and liver damage was particularly interesting seeing as he was pretty much made an example of was quite intrestesting...........

 

[IFF]

i was going order this book on amazon but instead i went for another book about cycling:On Your Bike: The Complete Guide to Cycling by Matt Seaton

maybe one day i'll read it but not yet

 

[Pedronimus]

I'm 3/4 way through this very good book. dunno if i'd call Marco an amazing athlete since he seems to have cheated in his amateur days.

Having read this and Paul Kimmages book, were there ever any decent clean cyclists?
Kimmage mentions Chris Boardman as being clean,
In this book Charly Mottet and Christophe Bassons get the clean stamp.

What's the general consensus on Indurain? He had all these natural advantages and doesn't seem to be linked to any dodgy doctors. but the TDF winners before and after him were all doped. (edit: well maybe not LeMond, I dunno.)

 

[flashback]

Doping in cycling.
It annoys me. People dont get it. They think that the riders are off, scheming, figuring out how to outwit the system.
And, it's just not like that. Pro road cyclists are basically cows. They are chattel.

There is a team of people converting them into the best cycling machines that they can. And, if doping enters the equation, and it does, so be it. As a pro rider you almost give up control over your own body.

To dope a cyclist, everyone is in on it. Everyone is working it out. The Director Sportif, the doctor, all the way down to the rider.
To me, it is so obvious... if you want to eliminate dope from the sport, you could do it tomorrow.
If caught doping Rider gets 2 years suspension, but is allowed ride and train with a team.
That riders doctor gets 6, and the director sportif gets 8. And the sponsors of the team must pull out of cycling for a year.

And that's it. No more doping.

But, instead, all the shit is just heaped onto some poor pleb who rides the bike, and had the misfortune to metabolize the drug slightly slower than he should have, and was snared. As if he was the person to blame.

Edit. And Pantani was amazing. He was utter class. I used to get emotional watching the savageness of his attacks. I think I may have cried a little when I read about his death. But... I am a massive mincer, so, you know...

 

[IFF]

were there ever any decent clean cyclists?

Alfredo Binda

What's the general consensus on Indurain? He had all these natural advantages and doesn't seem to be linked to any dodgy doctors. but the TDF winners before and after him were all doped. (edit: well maybe not LeMond, I dunno.)

"everyne rides about 15 per cent faster in the mountains that they did in the 1980's"
Pro cycling, January 07, page 44

"but by then [1988], steroids were about to become irrelevant: within a coupple of years, rumours were sweeping the pro peloton of an amzing new drug that could boast a rider's ability by 10 to 15 per cent"

matt seaton "On your bike" page 148

so what explains the other 0-5%?

flashback makes a good point. personally, i don't think all the peloton is doping but it isn't exactly clean and i doubt it will ever be. there is too much pressure on riders to dope. an interesting theory on the landis saga was put forward by a doctor saying that landis didn't neccessarily take testosterone that night but instead got a blood transfusion like his buddy Hamilton and the blood he got put in him was filled with testosterone. i don't know

also, last week, on a sotry on cyclingnews, the former directeur sportif of Phonak said he felt cheated by what landis did. is it a smokescreen or not? did he have any involvement and by speaking out, he's trying to cover his involvement up?

Edit. And Pantani was amazing. He was utter class.

indeed

 

[CinnamonBoy]

Doping in cycling.
It annoys me. People dont get it. They think that the riders are off, scheming, figuring out how to outwit the system.
And, it's just not like that. Pro road cyclists are basically cows. They are chattel.

There is a team of people converting them into the best cycling machines that they can. And, if doping enters the equation, and it does, so be it. As a pro rider you almost give up control over your own body.

To dope a cyclist, everyone is in on it. Everyone is working it out. The Director Sportif, the doctor, all the way down to the rider.
To me, it is so obvious... if you want to eliminate dope from the sport, you could do it tomorrow.
If caught doping Rider gets 2 years suspension, but is allowed ride and train with a team.
That riders doctor gets 6, and the director sportif gets 8. And the sponsors of the team must pull out of cycling for a year.

And that's it. No more doping.

But, instead, all the shit is just heaped onto some poor pleb who rides the bike, and had the misfortune to metabolize the drug slightly slower than he should have, and was snared. As if he was the person to blame.

Edit. And Pantani was amazing. He was utter class. I used to get emotional watching the savageness of his attacks. I think I may have cried a little when I read about his death. But... I am a massive mincer, so, you know...

This is lunacy!!
It's not that simple unfortunately. Only an idiot is caught doping these days. Like a desperate Floyd Landis doing a blood transfusion during the tour. It's the reason why Armstrong never tested positive. And what sponsor is going to invest in a team knowing they could possibly be forced to pull out by a rider being caught???? Sponsors keep the sport going.
Eradicating doping from cycling is a near-impossibility without suspending the entire professional level of the sport for ten years. Read about the "belgian-pot" parties in the off-season in Laurent Jalabert's house. Festina's infamous 1998 soigneour Willy Voet was on a cocktail of drugs himself when he was stopped at the border. Kimmage talks of everyone charging up at the belgian criterium races.....the sport and culture is steeped in drugs.
Head over to www.cyclingnews.com.


As regards Indurain...Bernard Hinault (I think) pointed out that you don't win the tour on mineral water alone.

 

[flashback]

As regards Indurain...Bernard Hinault (I think) pointed out that you don't win the tour on mineral water alone.

[SIZE=-1]Jacques Antequil...[/SIZE]


Think about it. If you suspend the head guys, the sport will change. If you fire the whipping boy, obviously nothing changes.

No single rider is strong enough. The riders union is complicit. The only was is to go for the people who are actually organizing the doping. Ie, DS, and team doctor.

And... just FYI, I have it on more or less as good authority as you can have it that everyone blood dopes during the tour. I was told an interesting story about this, specifically regarding Landis not getting his blood in fact, as punishment.

 

[snap-apple]

I read Graham Fife's book about le Tour there recently and you can get a sense from the very early years that cheating or bending the rules was expected to some degrees and it was accepted that the riders would do pretty much anything to win. You could look at doping as a continuation of that attitude. Just a shame that it all clouds who the actual 'greats' are to some extent.

 

[nuke terrorist]

i'm reading the Pantani book at the moment -70 pages left. one thing that struck me was how poor quality the info i got from the cycling press and TV was before i got regular internet access to stuff like cyclingnews.com. a lot of things in the book i remember hearing about vaguely in the late nineties but it was only later and even now reading the book that i fully understand what the score was.
for example on the penultimate day of Pantani's 1998 giro win his teamate Forconi was expelled for a high haematocrit this hardly registered as being important to Eurosport and the next month's Cyclesport magazine.

Bassons has said that if the speeds had been just an average of 3 kph slower then races would have been easy instead of just trying to hang on and get to the finish.

LeMond seems to be the only modern tour winner that anyone trusts.
the best current rider i can think of who says the right things and has an honest reputation is Belgian Philippe Gilbert of Francais De Jeux. he won five races i think last season including Het Volk. one of my favourites he a very promising rider, i think he's 24.

Valverde and Bettini have both publicly stated their opposition to DNA testing.

 

[c0De_n1NjA]

a book about a cyclist!! god help us all.

 

[c0De_n1NjA]

losers

 

[P. Littbarski]

i've heard this book is well worth a read, even to someone who is not really a cycling 'fan'..do you need to know a bit about the sport for it to make sense ?

also, would jan ullrich be considered a clean rider ? he was banned fron the 06 tour right ?

 

[c0De_n1NjA]

do you need to know a bit about the sport for it to make sense ?

CYCLING!!

 

[P. Littbarski]

CYCLING!!

yes, cycling

its either that or bowls alright (aka lawn bowling)

so on yer bike*

*couldnt resist

 

[Pedronimus]

Head over to www.cyclingnews.com.

As regards Indurain...Bernard Hinault (I think) pointed out that you don't win the tour on mineral water alone.

I just discovered that website the other day, very informative. As regards Indurain, I was just hoping his natural advantages were enough. 8 litre lunds 90 vo2max, long femur, 28bpm resting heart rate etc...

also, would jan ullrich be considered a clean rider ? he was banned fron the 06 tour right ?

definitely not, he has been suspended twice hasn't he? He has a nice lazy pedalling action, but tends to eat all the pies in the off season.

Doping in cycling.
It annoys me. People dont get it. They think that the riders are off, scheming, figuring out how to outwit the system.
And, it's just not like that. Pro road cyclists are basically cows. They are chattel.

I think we all know that the team and doctors are in on it(forcing it). I would just like to think that there are one or two who refuse and are able to survive at a pro-level.

 

[nuke terrorist]

my understanding of the Ullrich situation at the moment is tha having thus far refused a DNA sample that he considering suppling one now as he realises the Suisse federation which he got his racing licence from is going to get samples from Spain to compare soon anyway.
T Mobile sacked him for not giving a DNA sample and all of Ullrich clique on the team have left, under new management the have brought in very stringent, the most tough anti doping measures yet seen. A far less talented team now.
an honest rider will speak out against doping even if it loses him friends - if someone says dodgy things then their is no hope for them.
Armstrong, Valverde, even Bettini have talked crap about doping so have many others.
most of the Operacion Puerto accused have no teams for this season (including Ullrich) but Discovery have signed Basso.

 

[CinnamonBoy]

[SIZE=-1]Jacques Antequil...[/SIZE]


I was told an interesting story about this, specifically regarding Landis not getting his blood in fact, as punishment.

What's the full story?

Pff...I don't wanna talk about cycling any more. The sport on a pro level is fucked, it leaves such a bitter taste in my mouth. I got in to it around 1999 and a fair proportion of the riders I idolised on Eurosport every sunday (Oscar Camenzind, Johan Museeuw etc.) have by now been shown to be cheats. But then, most of them are at it. That Lance Armstrong is now such a hero is disgusting, check out his bullying of Filippo Simeoni, the italian rider who had spoken out on doping. He's a dick!
But I don't think it's just cycling. Swimming, athletics etc.....I don't believe in any of it any more. I've been reading Tom Humphries too long....
These sports need loads of Paul Kimmages to write books or do interviews and expose everything. And yeah, get rid of the team directors and corrupt doctors. Manolo Saiz, Patrick Lefevere...they gotta go.

I'd like to hear what Mark Scanlon thinks.

 

[Pedronimus]

here's an interesting thread on the whole thing.......

http://www.cyclingforums.com/t270701.html

 

[flashback]

What's the full story?

You have a PM.

 

[IFF]

What's the full story?

Pff...I don't wanna talk about cycling any more. The sport on a pro level is fucked, it leaves such a bitter taste in my mouth. I got in to it around 1999 and a fair proportion of the riders I idolised on Eurosport every sunday (Oscar Camenzind, Johan Museeuw etc.) have by now been shown to be cheats. But then, most of them are at it. That Lance Armstrong is now such a hero is disgusting, check out his bullying of Filippo Simeoni, the italian rider who had spoken out on doping. He's a dick!
But I don't think it's just cycling. Swimming, athletics etc.....I don't believe in any of it any more. I've been reading Tom Humphries too long....
These sports need loads of Paul Kimmages to write books or do interviews and expose everything. And yeah, get rid of the team directors and corrupt doctors. Manolo Saiz, Patrick Lefevere...they gotta go.

I'd like to hear what Mark Scanlon thinks.

i remember reading mark scanlon saying that what we need is surviellance of cyclist in the run up to major races, not just the test. i don't remember what he said eactly

i think Mark was also annoyed with the way how Ag2r was treating him. he was called up to the giro with just 3 days notice when he wasn't even on the reserve lst was a major problem for him when he was just returning from injury and then all the subsequent broken promises