Sexism, god help us (2 Viewers)

[ann post]

there was no "massive kerfuffle led by feminists". there was a barrage of twitter abuse directed at feminists who mentioned the shirt.

I wonder were any of the people leading the massive kerfuffle actually on the shirt.

 

[тхеодоре кацзынски]

surely its already gone to far by that stage?

its kind of like saying you shouldn't do something about someone endangering someone else until they're approaching them with a knife. Fuck that shit. Nip it in the bud good and early.

And freedom of speech should not include things that will negatively impact the rights, freedom and/or safety of others. So this is not a freedom of speech argument IMO.

You're essentially arguing for preemption. If we find it unacceptable when the US argues that they can preemptively attack a percieved threat why should it be any different here?
While reprehensible, Blanc standing in a hotel room telling a bunch of lads to push girls into their crotch is not advocating immediate violence nor should it be judged as such.
It's absolutely freedom of speech, who decides whether or not something negatively impacts others? As the whole 'freedom of speech' debate is so nebulous we should seek to ensure that the law errs on the side of caution and gives as broad a definition as possible (if a definition is possible) when it comes to deciding what is free speech and setting its parameters.

Yeah but where does this mythical line between immediate threats get drawn? Like when someone is brandishing a weapon? Surely we know by now that speech, and specifically hate speech, can be just as dangerous, its even more creepily illicit. Its hate speech like this that feeds into the rape culture that has for example, led to the death of those 78 women that have been murdered by their spouses since 1996.

Like, this isn't just a case of let him come in and embarrass himself, this is an actual real problem that is a symptom of the physically violent culture we all live in! Dramatic stands, like denying him a visa, need to be made. His seminars can't just be isolated to some fucking dope talking shit, its part of a massive problem that is an immediate threat of violence.

Dramatic stands should absolutely not be made with regard to law, the cliche 'hard cases make bad law' is no less true for being a cliche.
While there is undoubtedly a culture that demeans women and a significant cohort of people who believe in and reinforce the same we will not change this by preventing someone entering the state.
Challenge the problem at root, not the manifestations.

 

[Unicron]

Free speech is everything, as I've said before banning this guy from the state on the basis that he may say terrible things is not a desirable course of action. Allow him do his thing and if he is found to have broken our laws then prosecute him.
Incitement to violence should only be a prosecutable offence when the threat of violence is immediate.

There is footage of him assaulting people in Japan, that's grounds for denying him entry if they really wanted to.

 

[nooleen]

Prohibition of Incitement To Hatred Act, 1989, Section 2

2.—(1) It shall be an offence for a person—


(b) to use words, behave or display written material—

if the written material, words, behaviour, visual images or sounds, as the case may be, are threatening, abusive or insulting and are intended or, having regard to all the circumstances, are likely to stir up hatred.

now that only technically applies to "a group of persons in the State or elsewhere on account of their race, colour, nationality, religion, ethnic or national origins, membership of the travelling community or sexual orientation"

so you could argue that hatred of women isn't technically covered therefore FREESPEECH must not be impeded if it's only against women

 

[egg_]

Also I was kidding.

Ah, of course
/me slaps forehead

 

[hydromancer]

Yeah but where does this mythical line between immediate threats get drawn? Like when someone is brandishing a weapon? Surely we know by now that speech, and specifically hate speech, can be just as dangerous, its even more creepily illicit. Its hate speech like this that feeds into the rape culture that has for example, led to the death of those 78 women that have been murdered by their spouses since 1996.

Like, this isn't just a case of let him come in and embarrass himself, this is an actual real problem that is a symptom of the physically violent culture we all live in! Dramatic stands, like denying him a visa, need to be made. His seminars can't just be isolated to some fucking dope talking shit, its part of a massive problem that is an immediate threat of violence.

The thing is why should people act on his words or advice at all ? If was to say to you rob a bank would you do it ? The answer is no because you have the ability to think for yourself. Basically people have the right to express there opinion and other people have the right to then disagree with them but if you try to censor him then your basically denying other people the right to make up there own minds or think for themselves about what he has to say.
If nobody can make a controversial statement then can there even be any critical thinking ? So I think it has to be dealt with in a different way than simply calling for an out right ban or a total censorship.

 

[nooleen]

I wonder were any of the people leading the massive kerfuffle actually on the shirt.

what do you mean?

 

[hydromancer]

Actually what he does propose quite blatantly is violence against women. I would find it hard to imagine that he would get much interest or a big audience for what he does

 

[nooleen]

sure since when is violence against women a thing, that'll never catch on

 

[snakybus]

This is an interesting thread, it really is. Between Egg bumbling about bemusedly slapping himself in the head like Steve Martin in Father of the Bride, when all he wants is to find a nightclub quick and do some DANCING, a bunch of punks in a tiny corner of the internet trying to decide whether it's better for our patriarchical establishment that is Irish law to implement the full force of its muscle and ban this sick spoilt rich kid bastard NOW or to let him have his do his fantasy crotch thing to an empty room, and a space man getting teary over some sexy robots on his shirt, well, I don't know where to look, I really don't.

 

[therealjohnny]

Wait...so the Dapper Laughs guy and this guy are two different people?

 

[therealjohnny]

This is an interesting thread, it really is. Between Egg bumbling about bemusedly slapping himself in the head like Steve Martin in Father of the Bride, when all he wants is to find a nightclub quick and do some DANCING, a bunch of punks in a tiny corner of the internet trying to decide whether it's better for our patriarchical establishment that is Irish law to implement the full force of its muscle and ban this sick spoilt rich kid bastard NOW or to let him have his do his fantasy crotch thing to an empty room, and a space man getting teary over some sexy robots on his shirt, well, I don't know where to look, I really don't.

Punks? On Thumped?

 

[snakybus]

I meant it in the Clint Eastwood way.

 

[тхеодоре кацзынски]

There is footage of him assaulting people in Japan, that's grounds for denying him entry if they really wanted to.

Possibly, but just because something can be done it doesn't follow that it should.

sure since when is violence against women a thing, that'll never catch on

But is Blanc going to inspire someone to violence against women who wouldn't otherwise be that way disposed? And if so, surely then the problem lies with the perpetrator of the violence and, if Blanc is banned then that person will simply find another messenger that justifies / advocates their action.

 

[nooleen]

But is Blanc going to inspire someone to violence against women who wouldn't otherwise be that way disposed? And if so, surely then the problem lies with the perpetrator of the violence and, if Blanc is banned then that person will simply find another messenger that justifies / advocates their action.

he's advocating violence against women to men who are paying for dating tips.

 

[Unicron]

Possibly, but just because something can be done it doesn't follow that it should.

That's true but my point is that if the will is there to tell him to get fucked there's plenty of justification for doing so without the state explicitly impinging on someone's right to free speech.

I do see the merit of him trying to give his lecture to an empty room, though I'm sure in truth some lads would turn up, but I would prefer if he fucked off, and kept fucking off till he could fuck off no further (which would actually be close to Australia, which has already told him to fuck off.)

 

[тхеодоре кацзынски]

he's advocating violence against women to men who are paying for dating tips.

Yeah but that should be balanced against the likelihood of these men then going on to commit violence against a woman and whether or not Blanc is the person who planted this idea in their heads. Even if it can be proven that Blanc is responsible, is 'the big boy told me to do it' a legitimate defence?
There's no doubt that violence against women is a problem but I really don't think letting this guy in is going to further that problem nor will barring him solve the problem, at least not in any meaningful way.

That's true but my point is that if the will is there to tell him to get fucked there's plenty of justification for doing so without the state explicitly impinging on someone's right to free speech.

I do see the merit of him trying to give his lecture to an empty room, though I'm sure in truth some lads would turn up, but I would prefer if he fucked off, and kept fucking off till he could fuck off no further (which would actually be close to Australia, which has already told him to fuck off.)

Is that not allowing law to be dictated by the mob? At which stage 'law' loses its meaning.

Someone could nominate him for that one-way trip to Mars.

 

[nooleen]

Yeah but that should be balanced against the likelihood of these men then going on to commit violence against a woman and whether or not Blanc is the person who planted this idea in their heads. Even if it can be proven that Blanc is responsible, is 'the big boy told me to do it' a legitimate defence?
There's no doubt that violence against women is a problem but I really don't think letting this guy in is going to further that problem nor will barring him solve the problem, at least not in any meaningful way.

you seem to think violent behaviour occurs in a vacuum. do you not understand what 'incitement' means?

 

[pete]

This is an interesting thread, it really is. Between Egg bumbling about bemusedly slapping himself in the head like Steve Martin in Father of the Bride, when all he wants is to find a nightclub quick and do some DANCING, a bunch of punks in a tiny corner of the internet trying to decide whether it's better for our patriarchical establishment that is Irish law to implement the full force of its muscle and ban this sick spoilt rich kid bastard NOW or to let him have his do his fantasy crotch thing to an empty room, and a space man getting teary over some sexy robots on his shirt, well, I don't know where to look, I really don't.

MODERATOR

 

[7 - No tomorrow]

Wut?