Nick Cave at the 3Arena (1 Viewer)

ann post

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Has anyone just considered that all these massive acts work for the same touring company and are probably just told they are playing isreal as part of the package, like you know, having a job that you find morally wrong in some ways but rewarding in others? Pixies thread next summer too...
 

Lili Marlene

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Has anyone just considered that all these massive acts work for the same touring company and are probably just told they are playing isreal as part of the package, like you know, having a job that you find morally wrong in some ways but rewarding in others? Pixies thread next summer too...
Ah, the Nuremberg defence. Indeed.
 

7 - No tomorrow

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Has anyone just considered that all these massive acts work for the same touring company and are probably just told they are playing isreal as part of the package, like you know, having a job that you find morally wrong in some ways but rewarding in others? Pixies thread next summer too...
Does that sound like Israel was just dropped on his itinerary?
He's a believer

My job involves making very rich white men even richer
You want see me writing an Op-ed about how awesome rich dudes are though
 

nuke terrorist

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Cave has long criticized political songs, especially contemporary
ones (even the POP GROUP) saying among other things
that they age badly.
the idea of being co-opted into into anything bigger than
himself sits very badly with him it seems.

I also remember Roger Waters arguing that fox hunting
being banned in UK was a denying people's civil rights !

no shortage of bands have played Israel over the years.
(e.g. in 1992 i was surprised NAPALM DEATH went there)

i'm not going to defend Israel other than to say one thing -
boycotting Israeli DIY musicians who are anti Zionist, army
refusers etc is a bad idea IMO.

Israel is one of many messed up countries - especially in middle east.
i think Irish people working in the UAE are nuts to go there.

and lots of bands go to the UAE.

i also have a friend whose husband worked in Saudi and
she hated the place. why did they go there then ?
for the money.
 

hugh

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Cave has long criticized political songs, especially contemporary
ones (even the POP GROUP) saying among other things
that they age badly.
the idea of being co-opted into into anything bigger than
himself sits very badly with him it seems.
Yes, this is it. Lots of acts obviously play Israel but Cave seems to be the only major one (that I know of) who seems to be claiming to be doing so because he actively wants to undermine the boycott. He's doing it because it strikes some sort of blow for the rights of artists to perform there if they want. So basically the rights of artists to do whatever the fuck they want seems to take precedence over any other kind of rights. And certainly takes precedence over any political cause or movement that people might want him to align himself with.

It totally fits into his whole persona which has always been about the exalted artist and tortured genius whose concerns are way above those of the rest of us mere mortals. I used to love Nick Cave but now I just think he's a massive dick.
 

Lili Marlene

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The anti-semitic thing is obvs bollocks, but the rest of it is fine IMO. If someone looks at the same data as I look at, and comes to a different conclusion, that doesn't make them an asshole.
Well I was more thinking that for something where he is often praised for his inspiring use of the internet to discuss ideas in nuanced non-hysterical ways, it's a pretty poor answer; evasive and judgemental. His final word is that the BDS movement is "cowardly and shameful" and "anti-Semitic" but then he refuses to actually discuss why.

I have mixed feelings on BDS myself, mostly about what I was saying earlier in regards the USA, but it's all abstract for me anyway, i'm not playing Israel. It's quite real for him and the least he could do is actually go into detail if he's going to bring it up.
 

nuke terrorist

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apart from the first two Bad Seeds albums a quick look at discogs
shows there was Israeli pressings of their albums from 1986 onward.
nothing unusual about that.

many major label artists had albums pressed in apartheid era South Africa.
nothing unusual about that either.
including many that were actively were against apartheid e.g.
Tracy Chapman, Bob Marley, UB40, Stevie Wonder, Springsteen etc.
this is often glossed over.

but musicians from South African bore brunt of the boycott.

America is safe in the knowledge that it's unboycottable.

basically BDS doesn't take account of the difference between
a DIY politically active artist and a rich apathetic rockstar.
 

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A blanket BDS is a damaging idea because it actually encourages Israeli nationalism in Israel and also restricts opponents of the Israeli regime based in Israel. I don't think it's okay to remove platforms for Israelis that are opposed to the Israeli regime, and for the life of me I can't understand why people can't just use sense in applying BDS so that it doesn't directly hit the Israelis that aren't right-wing mentalists. It's just mad to me that some people can't see that.

Like, if some Israeli punk band that doesn't like governments in general wants to come over and play some gigs around here, I wouldn't have any bother putting them on.
If on the other hand Benjamin Netanyahu was getting in touch about doing a spoken word tour based on his life, he can go fuck himself.

It doesn't generally seem that hard to me to be able to make the distinction in most instances.
 

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A blanket BDS is a damaging idea because it actually encourages Israeli nationalism in Israel and also restricts opponents of the Israeli regime based in Israel. I don't think it's okay to remove platforms for Israelis that are opposed to the Israeli regime, and for the life of me I can't understand why people can't just use sense in applying BDS so that it doesn't directly hit the Israelis that aren't right-wing mentalists. It's just mad to me that some people can't see that.

Like, if some Israeli punk band that doesn't like governments in general wants to come over and play some gigs around here, I wouldn't have any bother putting them on.
If on the other hand Benjamin Netanyahu was getting in touch about doing a spoken word tour based on his life, he can go fuck himself.

It doesn't generally seem that hard to me to be able to make the distinction in most instances.
Exactly

It tracks back to the 80s, when Queen grabbed a big cheque that was waved in front of them, and played Sun City - breaking the (UN, I think) boycott
Cunts

Paul Simon breaking the same boycott, went and recorded Graceland with South AFrican musicians
Told everyone giving him grief to fuck off, basically
Not really a cunt in this instance

(I know everyone here probably remembers this anyway, but I'm an old man and I like stories)
 

hugh

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General Nick Cave question
Has he blown up to arena level partly because of Peaky Blinders?
There was an article someone posted a while ago from a music industry magazine about the behind-the-scenes push to move Cave up to the "superstar" level. It was a very deliberate strategy that started when he left Mute. Oh, here it is ...


As for the other stuff ... I don't think you can be selective about boycotts. It doesn't really work if that's the case. I do get that it negatively affects people who are actually opposed to the regime or system being boycotted.

And as for Paul Simon .... his heart was undoubtedly in the right place but that doesn't mean he did the right thing. He should have talked to the ANC about it. And as this account of a press conference of the time makes clear .. he also suffers from the idea, like Cave, that art and artists transcend politics.

 

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Interesting, we were just talking about this today. "when did nick cave get so big?". My thoughts were that he was being pushed to fill the hole that Leonard Cohen dug. I didn't even think about Bowie etc
 

Lili Marlene

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The Paul Simon one is actually fairly similar in that he also refused, and still refuses, to discuss it in any detail. At least he also had a massive fight over cultural appropriation with the Americans on his album.

I do think it is their right as an artist to do whatever the fuck they want, but obviously that comes with consequences. I'd rather that than seeing famous music people as too big to fail, like some kind of 2008 bank.
 

nuke terrorist

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knew about QUEEN at Sun CIty. they were slaughtered for that.
even Millie Jackson played there - as did many others.

as i've said earlier some of the people on the above song records
were pressed in South Africa at the time.

Ian Astbury culturally appropriated a lot from The Birthday Party
..... and native Americans.
 

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