Let's give some power back to the priests, shall we? (1 Viewer)

[jane]

http://www.independent.ie/national-...fficer-role-with-foreign-couples-1280695.html

Foreigns would have to apply for permission to marry Irish people and vice versa. It's like the fucking work situation -- if you're Irish and you want to marry a foreign, you're going to have to prove to the Dept of Justice THROUGH a priest or solemniser that the position of spouse cannot be filled by a European.

Fucking mental.

But hey, considering some orange crone in Brown Thomas the other day started going on to me about pure Irish bloodlines, I'm not fucking surprised. Apparently, foreigners are rapists! But Irish-Americans are okay, apparently. No Irish or Irish-American person has ever known to be a rapist, because in that case, it's just surprise sex with some bruising.

Here's a snippet of the conversation:

Crone: We're being invaded by foreigners!

Me: What do you mean?

Crone: They're taking over the country. And two weeks ago, a woman was raped.

Me: Uh, women are raped every day, and it's not exactly new.

Crone: But not like this.

Me: Well, when you make it impossible to get into the country, you're creating more crime and making it harder for law-abiding people to immigrate here anyway. but that's nothing to do with rape.

Crone: the tragedy is that Irish Americans can't get back here. They should be allowed.

Me: What do you mean 'back' here? People with Irish grandparents can get a passport, and anything further than that and you're talking about some pretty hazy territory.

Crone: I just think Irish-Americans should be allowed in.

Me: Do you mean people with Irish blood, and not other people?

Crone: Yes.

Me: Wow, that's like Nazi Germany.

Crone: Oh, no, not like Nazi Germany.

ME: That wasn't a question. It's like Nazi Germany.

Crone: I just think they need to do something about the invasion.

Me: Well, I'm not Irish-American, so I guess I'm part of the problem. I'm marrying one of yours in two days.






I'm considering complaning, not to the store, but to the cosmetics company she works for. It was so fucking upsetting. And then you realise that the majority of people in Ireland believe immigrants should be treated as criminals first and foremost, and that the legislation is increasingly reflecting this. So okay, my complaint would not only fall on deaf ears, the legislation actually upholds her argument about invaders, not my argument that people deserve to be treated like humans. The government could tell us we can't be married, and I'm just thinking, "Holy shit, I'm glad I didn't have to deal with that. I'm SO glad we got in 'under the wire'."

Used to be you'd ask a lady's father for her hand, now you'll have to ask Father Jack to ask the Lenihans. And you know, no one is going to give a shit except the people who are directly affected by it, who can't say anything because they are afraid of what will happen if they rock the boat.

 

[Wobbler]

Fintan O'Toole had a fairly good column on that yesterday. It does appear to be pretty crazy alright. But as you say, most people don't give a fuck so nothing will be done about it.

 

[jane]

Fintan O'Toole had a fairly good column on that yesterday. It does appear to be pretty crazy alright. But as you say, most people don't give a fuck so nothing will be done about it.

This is the problem. Some people DO give a fuck, but they are either touched by it personally or already connected with NGOs (and so accused of 'bias' which is ridiculous because DUH, if looking out for human rights is bias, then I don't know what planet to move to). But the majority of the voters in the country believe it's okay to lock up foreigners as guilty until proven innocent, so there isn't much hope.

It's pretty dodgy because it's also a possible violation of the European Convention on Human Rights.

But again, you know, things like 'human rights' are just so biased. Towards humans.

 

[Wobbler]

Marriage intrusion absurd

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/opinion/2008/0205/1201903490699.html#
As she looked shyly across the roomful of strangers, Katie's glance hovered for a tiny moment around Seán's ruggedly handsome features. He was talking in an animated manner to his friends, laughing and joking with a breezy confidence that made her all the more conscious of her own unease. She looked away but found that she could not resist stealing another quick glance, writes Fintan O'Toole .
This time, their eyes met. He held her gaze coolly, brazenly, but with a warm tenderness that held her transfixed. She blushed as she looked down to the floor, but she knew now that every beat of her heart was bringing him a step closer to her. She knew that they would talk and meet again and kiss and make love and that, before the year was out, he would ask her to marry him.
And she would say, her voice shaking with tender rapture: "Yes, my darling, let's ask Brian Lenihan if it's okay."
This, my friends, is the shape of Irish chick-lit to come. In a move that makes Mills & Boon look believable, Brian Lenihan last week published legislation that will give him the right to decide whether some couples will be allowed to marry. You couldn't make it up but you don't have to. There, in black print on white paper, is one of the most extraordinary provisions ever included in Irish legislation.
The Immigration Bill will, if passed, lay down that "A marriage purportedly contracted in the State between two persons one or each of whom is a foreign national is invalid in law" unless the Minister for Justice is notified three months in advance. The Minister can refuse permission outright on a number of grounds, including the vague catch-all that the marriage "would not be in the interests of public security, public policy or public order". Essentially, a politician will have the personal power to decide whether an Irish citizen can marry a foreigner, or whether two foreigners can marry each other. "Public policy" may decree that Katie and Seán aren't the right sort to marry each other.
Not only that, but the Bill will criminalise any priest or registrar who performs a wedding ceremony for two people who do not have the Minister's permission to marry. The wording would seem, in fact, to criminalise anyone who is a witness at such a ceremony, or even someone who drives the happy couple to the altar: "A person who knowingly a) solemnises or permits the solemnisation of a form of marriage which is, under this section, not a valid marriage, b) is a party to such a form of marriage, or c) facilitates such a form of marriage, shall be guilty of an offence."
Readers may imagine that these extraordinary provisions are being put forward as a way to stop foreign people contracting marriages with Irish citizens for no other reason than to acquire residency rights. But this is not so - Irish law does not at the moment confer any such rights by reason of marriage alone and the Bill elsewhere re-enforces this state of affairs. So the Bill's bizarre powers are simply an exercise in absurdly overbearing control-freakery.
What's happening here is an extreme example of the way normally sensible people lose the run of themselves when it comes to immigration. If, in any other area, the Government took to itself such sweeping powers to interfere in personal and family life, people would be up in arms. One would expect the churches, for example, to be rather upset about the notion that Brian Lenihan should take the place of God in the sacrament of marriage. But when it comes to legislating for migration, the first impulse is to punish, to control, to suspect.
The rules of good government - transparency, accountability, proportionality - don't apply to immigration. Even while the Immigration Bill is trying to bring some welcome rationality to an area that has been governed by chaotic and outmoded rules, it undoes much of its good work by giving the Minister for Justice unaccountable powers. "Public security, public policy or public order" is a catch-all that sets aside all notions of transparent decision-making. Once the minister invokes it, he or she has no more explaining to do. The grounds of any such decision don't have to be explained to the person who is subject to it. And if the person challenges a ruling in court, "the minister shall not be obliged to disclose the source of information upon which he or she formed the opinion".
The problem with all of this is not just that it gives far too much power to an individual politician, but that it infects the whole question of immigration with a taint of paranoia. Launching the Bill last week, Brian Lenihan pointed out that "There is a prevalent view in some quarters that most immigrants are here either unlawfully or on some spurious basis: but nothing could be further from the truth." Is it any wonder, though, that negative views might prevail in "some quarters" when all the signals from his own department are that immigrants are a dangerous, shifty lot, who can't be trusted with ordinary democratic procedures and who can't even be allowed to marry except under the stern and watchful eye of the Minister.

 

[Wobbler]

This is the problem. People DO give a fuck, but they are either touched by it personally or already connected with NGOs (and so accused of 'bias' which is ridiculous because DUH, if looking out for human rights is bias, then I don't know what planet to move to).

It's pretty dodgy because it's also a possible violation of the European Convention on Human Rights.

But again, you know, things like 'human rights' are just so biased. Towards humans.

Sorry, when I said people, I meant a critical mass of people to actually cause something to be done about it. There appears to be a hysterical paranoia about immigration in this country. It would be upsetting anyway but since we spent a century and a half sending emigrants around the world, it's pretty sickening.

 

[jane]

Holy shit. Thanks for posting that, Wobbs. At least someone is talking sense!

What's really fucked up is that, having just been through all of it and borne witness to it, the kinds of crazy behaviour that weddings seem to elicit from people mean that Irish families/friends/vindictive exes who don't like the potential foreign partner have just been given some serious fucking power.

Like, I know some families who would quite happily use it, and having seen some otherwise normal people turn UTTERLY INSANE and horrible to us, that would put yet another stress on a couple who are already being emotionally and financially blackmailed on a number of fronts.

Yes, there are people who marry some stranger for a passport, but why shoudl everyone else be punished? It also suggests that for so many couples who might have got married a bit sooner than they otherwise would have, rather than be separated from each other, may also be open to suspicion. Mr Jane and I miss each other when one of us is upstairs and one of us is downstairs. There's no way we would have coped if we'd been separated by any fucking government. What makes me really mad is the idea that in order to be considered 'valid', the government can ask our friends to sign a statement that says, "Every time we see Mr and Mrs Mr Jane, we want to be sick into a bucket."

Back to the whole fucking thing where, okay, if they refuse marriages on the alleged basis of residency, then why not make people apply even if they're Irish, in case they're doing it out of family obligation, for the tax breaks, accidental pregnancy, or because they feel it's expected of them? And if they are found to have included any of these factors in their decision, why not arrest them and anyone who was involved with their SHAM WEDDING?

 

[avernus]

you should definitely complain - both to Brown Thomas and whatever cosmetic company she's working for. these people need to be challenged on this stuff and fair play for having a go at her. it's upsetting how desperately uninformed and yet disgustingly opinionated some people are.

 

[Wobbler]

Back to the whole fucking thing where, okay, if they refuse marriages on the alleged basis of residency, then why not make people apply even if they're Irish, in case they're doing it out of family obligation, for the tax breaks, accidental pregnancy, or because they feel it's expected of them? And if they are found to have included any of these factors in their decision, why not arrest them and anyone who was involved with their SHAM WEDDING?

Indeed. But only if they're black or whatever. They're shifty fucks, those blacks.

 

[jane]

Sorry, when I said people, I meant a critical mass of people to actually cause something to be done about it. There appears to be a hysterical paranoia about immigration in this country. It would be upsetting anyway but since we spent a century and a half sending emigrants around the world, it's pretty sickening.

Yeah, that's kind of what I was trying to say.

It was yer woman going on about bloodlines so openly to a stranger that really irked me. I mean, it was the context of a BT saleslady trying to sell cosmetics and thinking that it was okay to do, not being polite or anything. Being horrible and vicious about it.

And this 'invasion' of which she spoke happens to coincide with the economic boom. Not a mention of that, though. Also, she was going on about Ron Paul, about whom she'd only just heard, and I said, "Well, the Klan supports him, if that tells you anything." And she was not all that bothered about his Klan support.

 

[Wobbler]

having just been through all of it and borne witness to it,

Congratulations, by the way.

 

[jane]

you should definitely complain - both to Brown Thomas and whatever cosmetic company she's working for. these people need to be challenged on this stuff and fair play for having a go at her. it's upsetting how desperately uninformed and yet disgustingly opinionated some people are.

Oh, I'm definitely going to. I just can't remember which counter she worked for, so I have to go back when she's working and check. I don't think BT will give a toss, but the major corporation who doesn't want to lose business around the world? They'll definitely have a tiny problem with it. I mean, her company are immigrants for one...

 

[jane]

Indeed. But only if they're black or whatever. They're shifty fucks, those blacks.

Yeah, but if you're pissed off at someone, because the minister doesn't have to disclose his 'source', you can at least delay the wedding of anyone you feel like. And while it's not a particularly useful thing to consider in legislation, the way people behave around weddings is just insane. They really will do fucked up things, and I can imagine an angry mammy-in-law doing it just because she can.

It's also disgusting because it suggests that it's totally suspicious of, say, an Irish person and an African to fall in love. Because why would you want to marry an African when you've got all you need at 3am on Leeson St?

 

[jane]

Congratulations, by the way.

Thanks! It's awesome. Yiz are gonna have a great time, Wobbs. It's real glowy after, too.

 

[Wobbler]

Yeah, but if you're pissed off at someone, because the minister doesn't have to disclose his 'source', you can at least delay the wedding of anyone you feel like. And while it's not a particularly useful thing to consider in legislation, the way people behave around weddings is just insane. They really will do fucked up things, and I can imagine an angry mammy-in-law doing it just because she can.

It's also disgusting because it suggests that it's totally suspicious of, say, an Irish person and an African to fall in love. Because why would you want to marry an African when you've got all you need at 3am on Leeson St?

I use to work with a guy who moved to Thailand to marry a Thai girl. Apparently every second person he spoke to asked him whether he was worried that she was just looking for an Irish passport. Obviously there's no such thing as interracial love

Thanks! It's awesome. Yiz are gonna have a great time, Wobbs. It's real glowy after, too.

Thanks.
I'm starting to get really excited. It's on May 9th so it's starting to creep up on us.

 

[Buzzo]

Jaysis.

I tend to be preoccupied with watching my civil rights and freedoms get eroded through criminal justice legislation, but this... this is like Die Hard is happening on the other channel while I'm watching the Antiques Roadshow. Fuckin Immigration is where it's AT!!!

It's mad. Basic personal freedoms are being removed, and fundamental principles of justice are being ripped to shreds in the Dail. I understand why people don't pay much attention to criminal justice or immigration legislation.... they don't think it relates to them (i'm not an immigint, nor am I a criminal, so it's fine). But it does, it really does, even if it doesn't relate to us here and now. I thought you needed a war or serious terrorist threats for this kind of shit, but apparently apathy is a capable facilitator for crazy mental government control shit.


APOCALYPSOS FOR ALL.

 

[Wobbler]

Jaysis.

I tend to be preoccupied with watching my civil rights and freedoms get eroded through criminal justice legislation, but this... this is like Die Hard is happening on the other channel while I'm watching the Antiques Roadshow. Fuckin Immigration is where it's AT!!!

It's mad. Basic personal freedoms are being removed, and fundamental principles of justice are being ripped to shreds in the Dail. I understand why people don't pay much attention to criminal justice or immigration legislation.... they don't think it relates to them (i'm not an immigint, nor am I a criminal, so it's fine). But it does, it really does, even if it doesn't relate to us here and now. I thought you needed a war or serious terrorist threats for this kind of shit, but apparently apathy is a capable facilitator for crazy mental government control shit.


APOCALYPSOS FOR ALL.

People appear to love it though.

 

[broken arm]

fuck ireland. i'm glad i don't live there any more.

 

[jane]

Jaysis.

I tend to be preoccupied with watching my civil rights and freedoms get eroded through criminal justice legislation, but this... this is like Die Hard is happening on the other channel while I'm watching the Antiques Roadshow. Fuckin Immigration is where it's AT!!!

It's mad. Basic personal freedoms are being removed, and fundamental principles of justice are being ripped to shreds in the Dail. I understand why people don't pay much attention to criminal justice or immigration legislation.... they don't think it relates to them (i'm not an immigint, nor am I a criminal, so it's fine). But it does, it really does, even if it doesn't relate to us here and now. I thought you needed a war or serious terrorist threats for this kind of shit, but apparently apathy is a capable facilitator for crazy mental government control shit.


APOCALYPSOS FOR ALL.

I think what is scariest is that it *does* apply to everyone because when one category of humans is devalued and stripped of their rights, it undermines the value of humanity in general. And then anyone could be next!

It's one of the reasons I have such a hard time with it. Because I know that when they say 'immigrant', they don't think of me, and even though I have the same legal status as the people called 'them', I have special rights by virtue of certain things being less likely to be applied to me. And those 'special rights'? Only being hassled for being a woman, not being doubly hassled for being female AND foreign.

My friend who is married to a German guy and lives in England, she nearly got locked up coming back into the UK one time after visiting him while he was digging in ITaly. They went on about this 'marriage of convenience', and while she basically kept her cool, she did say, "Excuse me? this is a marriage of INCONVENIENCE if we end up living apart a lot of the time because we're both academics." They told her she should have had him collect her at the airport, and if they had a 'real' marriage, he would have (despite the fact that she had just been to visit him in Italy on his excavation and has not mastered the art of bilocation) or at least a signed letter from him. Blah blah blah blah.

But yeah, when human rights are considered an inconvenience, or an optional thing, or something that has to be earned, it doesn't matter what category of humans that is being applied to, it tells ALL of us that our human rights are not as inalienable as we pretend they are. They only work if EVERYONE has them, otherwise they aren't human rights, are they?

 

[Froog]

typed in "sham marriage" into google images, and the following came up on the first page:

hmmmm.

 

[jane]

fuck ireland. i'm glad i don't live there any more.

See my post above. My friend who lives in the UK (she's actually in Wales now, while he's still in Cambridge because DUH two academics in the same field almost never find long-term jobs in the same university) has fierce hassle coming back into the UK.

The funny thing was that they didn't threaten to deport her, they told her she'd be sent back to the last airport she was in, which was in Italy. Which is where her husband was at the time.

Don't even get me started on basically having to ride each other in front of immigration officials in the US, just to prove you can.