How present are female musicians in the line-up at the Camden Crawl 2013? (1 Viewer)

[GirlsRockCampIE]

thanks hugh, i appreciate your patience
Especially the point that girls and women do go to gigs and are interested in music. Everyone should read that again, because that is the crux of the issue.

washingcattle, I might remind you that this is our biog and ask you to refrain from picking random bits and pieces to try and throw shade:

Girls* Rock! Ireland wants to empower women* and girls* to discover their musical and artistic possibilities. ✓ Form Bands ✓ Write Songs ✓ Rock Out ✓
Description
Welcome to Girls* Rock! Ireland!

Not just in the music industry in Ireland, but in many different musical contexts women* and girls* are often assigned stereotypical roles of singer, fan or groupie.

We want to change that! We want to empower women* and girls* to discover their musical and artistic possibilities through learning instruments, writing songs, forming bands and performing. We want to demonstrate that every genre of music and every technical job and creative endeavor can be available to any girl* or women* that wants to explore it. We want to destroy the traditions and eradicate the myths that prevent women* and girls* from participating in the (until now) male dominated Irish and international music scene.

History: The first Girls Rock Camp was set up in Portland, Oregon, U.S. in 2001. Now there are over 40 rock camps in the U.S., aswell as Popkollo in Sweden, Ruby Tuesday in Berlin, Austria, Paris. Every summer, girls* participate in camps where they learn instruments, write songs, form bands, perform and rock out!

If you are curious, would like to see Girls Rock Camp Ireland get off the ground, or have a question, email [email protected]

FYI the GRCA site isn't down, it relaunched in late February.

 

[washingcattle]

thanks hugh, i appreciate your patience
Especially the point that girls and women do go to gigs and are interested in music. Everyone should read that again, because that is the crux of the issue.

washingcattle, I might remind you that this is our biog and ask you to refrain from picking random bits and pieces to try and throw shade:

Girls* Rock! Ireland wants to empower women* and girls* to discover their musical and artistic possibilities. ✓ Form Bands ✓ Write Songs ✓ Rock Out ✓
Description
Welcome to Girls* Rock! Ireland!

Not just in the music industry in Ireland, but in many different musical contexts women* and girls* are often assigned stereotypical roles of singer, fan or groupie.

We want to change that! We want to empower women* and girls* to discover their musical and artistic possibilities through learning instruments, writing songs, forming bands and performing. We want to demonstrate that every genre of music and every technical job and creative endeavor can be available to any girl* or women* that wants to explore it. We want to destroy the traditions and eradicate the myths that prevent women* and girls* from participating in the (until now) male dominated Irish and international music scene.

History: The first Girls Rock Camp was set up in Portland, Oregon, U.S. in 2001. Now there are over 40 rock camps in the U.S., aswell as Popkollo in Sweden, Ruby Tuesday in Berlin, Austria, Paris. Every summer, girls* participate in camps where they learn instruments, write songs, form bands, perform and rock out!

If you are curious, would like to see Girls Rock Camp Ireland get off the ground, or have a question, email [email protected]

FYI the GRCA site isn't down, it relaunched in late February.

The front page says it's down for maintinance.


And actually none of that appears on your website, blog whatever you want to call it.

http://girlsrockireland.tumblr.com

And just to prove that statistics are dangerous things



Like I said I fundamentally agree with the idea of a camp to encourage girls to form bands. I think you should be very careful about how you go about that task.

 

[GirlsRockCampIE]

oh come on. that's not even in the biog on the tumblr. this is:

Girls Rock Camp Ireland wants to empower women* and girls* to discover their musical and artistic possibilities. ✓ Form Bands ✓ Write Songs ✓ Rock Out ✓

 

[washingcattle]

oh come on. that's not even in the biog on the tumblr. this is:

Girls Rock Camp Ireland wants to empower women* and girls* to discover their musical and artistic possibilities. ✓ Form Bands ✓ Write Songs ✓ Rock Out ✓

Yes and that is all that is on there.

The rest of what you posted above is not.

Look I think girls rock camp is a great idea. I just don't see how overloading it with political messages and unqualified statistics helps anyone to play music.

 

[GirlsRockCampIE]

You're right, it's on our facebook page. So the stuff you posted isn't even on the tumblr biog.

If it's political to say that all people should have equal access to making music, and that social structures prevent them from doing so, then call me assata shakur!

As for unqualified statistics, I answered all questions about the methodology used. I think it's pretty clear what the infographic is giving information about (the gender breakdown of the line-up at this festival in relations to bands and individual musicians). Before developing an empowerment programme such as the girls* rock! project, you need to assess the current situation, in order to set goals and measure progress. Is this so hard to see?

 

[washingcattle]

You're right, it's on our facebook page. So the stuff you posted isn't even on the tumblr biog.

If it's political to say that all people should have equal access to making music, and that social structures prevent them from doing so, then call me assata shakur!

As for unqualified statistics, I answered all questions about the methodology used. I think it's pretty clear what the infographic is giving information about (the gender breakdown of the line-up at this festival in relations to bands and individual musicians). Before developing an empowerment programme such as the girls* rock! project, you need to assess the current situation, in order to set goals and measure progress. Is this so hard to see?

Before making quota demands of the music scene you should first know the exact demographic breakdown of the music scene. Is that so hard to see?

Furthermore

This is always a problem for me. Whether it's this or some community arts program run by a political group.

If you want to empower young girls through music, then do that, teach them to play an instrument, encourage them to express themselves and form a band but don't force your politics down everyones throat in the process.

You're here representing a group which typically deals with girls not old enough to actually attend or play at the festival you're making demands of. This begs the question of what exactly are the motivations for this ?

In my experience if you want to work with young people to empower them through any medium it's best remain as apolitical as possible. Politics are by there nature divisive. If I'm a young girl looking to start a band and looking at either your tumbler account or your facebook or this thread I'm seeing a lot of politics and very little music. Like it or not politics are hugely off putting for adolescents.

What I'm saying is that by engaging in this kind of thing, you may be alienating the exact people who need you. You've already managed to alienate a lot of the people who post here and most of the people who post here are involved directly in DIY and could be great resources for your group in the future.

 

[Cormcolash]

Ya know what I don't give a shite about? Girls in bands.
Ya know what else I don't give a shite about? Boys in bands.
Ya know what I do give a shite about? Good music.

Also, someone should create one of those blogs about that infamous sound engineer dude in Whelans

 

[washingcattle]

Ya know what I don't give a shite about? Girls in bands.
Ya know what else I don't give a shite about? Boys in bands.
Ya know what I do give a shite about? Good music.

Also, someone should create one of those blogs about that infamous sound engineer dude in Whelans

I almost miss him.

 

[rettucs]

We want to demonstrate that every genre of music and every technical job and creative endeavor can be available to any girl* or women* that wants to explore it.

sorry for the selective quoting but I did find this sentence quite interesting. It kind of flies in the face of the message being pushed elsewhere that its not really available and that you need to fight like hell to make it available. But I like how that was phrased and I whole-heartedly agree.

And this

build girls' self-esteem through music creation and performance.

again, that is very noble and something I would endorse. To me this would be an infinitely more valuable message to get across than to puport that women need to fight the good fight to get any kind of foothold in the music industry. Even if that is true do you honestly think that anyone, male or female, with self-esteem issues is going to have either the energy or inclination to fight the good fight to make any kind of incursions into something that they perceive will furiously resist their efforts to do so?

Anyway, maybe this discussion is going around in circles somewhat. I think what would have been valuable would have been a contribution by a female who is in a band to have shared their experiences.

and it is an interesting topic. I think hugh was being slightly unfair in suggesting we were dismissing this as an issue. I don't think any of us did. At worst we were suggesting that there is more to this than meets the eye and its not just women who experience difficulties. Its a useful debate, but the opening arguments could have done with being a little less antagonistic and militant.

On the topic of women attending gigs. I attend a lot and I would say 30% about accurately reflects the female attendance at most of them. There are some acts that women tend to be drawn towards in greater numbers, and I would say the opposite is true of other acts. But on average guys would still outnumber girls from my own experience.

 

[Unicron]

Right, i've had at least 2 longish posts writen and then nixed before posting because I didn't want to get into it and I kinda said my piece in the other thread. But the bank holiday is over and I'm back in work so here's what I think ...

Without using bullshit phrases like "examine your privalage," which makes my soul cringe when I hear it trotted out in an argument, if women regularly complain that they feel excluded from entering the sphere of doing music, whether you feel their reasons for feeling excluded are silly or not, it might actually be a thing. And perhaps if you're a dude and you've never felt it, or are a woman who hasn't either, maybe you just don't get it because it doesn't reflect your experience of it but just because you've never seen gravity it doesn't mean it's not there.

It MAY also come down to people of a certain personality type not feeling able or feeling comfortable to making that leap from crowd/playing in their bedroom/daydreaming to stage and perhaps things like learned behavior and traditional gender roles means that personality type is more prevalent amongst women.

To that end if there was a group/movement/place which made people(i.e. chicks) with an interest in doing music more comfortable with making the jump to doing it or facilitated them doing it that would be a brilliant thing. And it's certainly something that the "anti" posters in this thread seem to be advocating. More good music would be cool, and I'm at a point in my life where I'm not really going to be annoyed by the bad music this thing might result in, I'm pretty good at ignoring music I don't like. And while I agree with the argument "you want to do it? then fucking do it," but it's not always that easy. You know what's a great way of getting over the problem of not being able to say "do you want to be in a band?" Someone else asking you "do you want to be in a band?"

With regard to most dudes I know that are in bands, I'm pretty confident that the main considerations they'd have about whether or not to be in a band with a woman is whether she can play and if they can get along with her, the usual considerations when it comes to picking bandmates.

I think quotas are a terrible idea, and Camden Crawl is a private enterprise which is entitled to employ any criteria they want in selected the bands that participate in it, in this case I assume it was to sell as many tickets as possible.

It may be the case that there are women who are not into radical feminism who would also like to do music, and who would not be into that aspect of Girl's Rock Camp cited by Washingcattle's word cloud thing, but that doesn't mean that they can't participate in the aspects of it that they might find useful to them if overall involvement would be be a positive experience for them and ignore the rest. And anyway Girl's Rock Camp is a private organisation and entitled to act however they please. Ultimately these things need to reflect the wants and requirements of those involved and the theoretical membership of it will probably determine what it ends up doing.

While the data in GRCIE's infographic may (and probably does) reflect a broad trend in the scene I question the rigour of the data gathering process as it was described for a number of reasons and to that end wouldn't be hanging my hat on the exact numbers presented; I like numbers and stats, and to mind mind suspect data is useless data.

 

[hermie]

Like I said we discussed this before in an earlier thread. My theory was that most people form their first bands during adolesence and regardless of musical abiity it is during this period (for most people) that they find themselves drawn to continually making music. Unfortunately there are thousands of studies that show that adolescent girls are more self conscious than boys and so this anxiety is a major stumbling block in the way of a young teenage girl in a band and in her future relationship to performing in a band in the future. It's not just music either, less girls engage in team sports, this too has it's roots in body image and anxiety.

Starting a band has nothing to do with ability, I could barely play smells like teen spirit when i started my first band, and we were total shit. The only thing that is required is a degree of self confidence. Boys tend to be far more extraverted during adolescence than girls and as a result more start bands, play shitty punk covers and get hooked on the idea of being in a band.

I think there's a lot in this. Anecdotally, I've seen it quite a bit myself. A bunch of us did a workshop in a youth centre there last summer, I was teaching guitar. Throughout the course of the day I probably had more girls come up than boys up to a certain age; they were every bit as good, in fact probably better players than the lads. But not one adolescent girl approached, while there were several teenage boys who did. Inevitably these had played a little bit and were at a better level by that stage and had a more prominent role when the proper youth workers organised the performance later in the day.

I don't know why this is exactly but any initiative working with girls in music should focus on that age bracket I think. I certainly wasn't an extrovert. Playing my first gigs at 14/15 I remember being still as a statue for the whole thing. Even to this day I get cripplingly nervous before shows. We often had girls at our practices and organising gigs for us, taking photos. But none of them seemed to play themselves or be interested in joining. I don't think we were exclusive in any way, we were too shy to be. I also know loads of women who took up music comparatively later in life and always felt like they were playing catch-up no matter how good they got. It's an interesting one, I'd love to know why. It's not like there isn't an audience out there, there's always a little bit more of a buzz from all-comers for a band with girls. It makes sense people get sick of staring at the same sweaty lads every weekend.

 

[GARYXKNIFEDX]

I also know loads of women who took up music comparatively later in life and always felt like they were playing catch-up

Anyone who starts later feels that,I know I certainly do. I didn't start playing guitar until I was 22 or so and always feel I'm way behind. It's a different way of learning though I reckon as there's not so much learning from peers etc.

 

[damien]

Without using bullshit phrases like "examine your privalage," which makes my soul cringe when I hear it trotted out in an argument

Why? Are you genuinely frightened by the idea of your own privilege?

For what it's worth, I do think there is a significant social barrier to women becoming involved in rock music, and I believe that it's far more subtle and pervasive than a lot of the arguments here will uncover. While I'm not sure that a quota is the way to solve it, I do applaud the OPs research, and I think that the defensiveness and antagonism displayed by most posters on this thread towards the subject shows clearly that people have a problem with facing up the reality of gender inequality in rock and roll music.

 

[Unicron]

Why? Are you genuinely frightened by the idea of your own privilege?

No, because it can be such a lazy stock phrase to jump to* and often something of an argument killer due to its common use in a confrontational manner. I thought that later in that paragraph I went on to write about the examination of, in this case, male privalage with regard to the topic at hand without using it.

* I also think it's widely misunderstood on a macro-level, just because one has an in-built advantage in one area in one place due to something, gender or ethnicity for example it doesn't mean that it's a universal truth in all scenareos and locations.

 

[Bastard Eoin]

Jaysis!

 

[RayRay]

I'm in two bands. Both contain female members. Out of my friends that are involved in music/bands more female friends have been successful then male.

 

[hermie]

I'm in two bands. Both contain female members. Out of my friends that are involved in music/bands more female friends have been successful then male.

Yep, and I'll probably be hung for saying this but I think a certain amount of positive discrimination already goes on out there. At least in terms of publicity, perhaps not on other levels. Not complaining, just sayin

 

[Scientician 0.8]

While I'm not sure that a quota is the way to solve it, I do applaud the OPs research, and I think that the defensiveness and antagonism displayed by most posters on this thread towards the subject shows clearly that people have a problem with facing up the reality of gender inequality in rock and roll music.

I Imagine it's partly because a lot of posters here have expended vast amounts of time, energy, and money on practicing, learning, writing music for little if any direct gain and in the face of venue avarice, promoter or media indifference, genre snobbery and cliqueishness can't fathom how they have an advantage over anyone else. I was helped by the encouragement of peers as many are and I in turn have encouraged others but ultimately it rests with you to make a go of it. Why more men choose to in rock music I suppose is the core issue but those men who do and harbour no prejudice possibly feel like they're getting grief for an inequality either they've never seen or created by people other than them.

 

[Scientician 0.8]

Genuine aside #1: has the OP done research on gender balance across different genres? I'd love to see stats on that.

#2: the gender gap seems huge in stand-up comedy. Any idea why so few women are involved and is it in anyway related to the imbalance in rock?

 

[GirlsRockCampIE]

Hi everyone! I don't have time today to respond to some interesting points but just wanted to post this, with regards to sexism across different art forms, here is josie long being eloquent as usual:

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Scientician, if you want to count gender balance across different genres, be my guest I would love to see some stats on that too.
It would be pretty cool to make snapshots of levels of participation in different music scenes according to gender.