Public versus Private Sector (6 Viewers)

[Jim Daniels]

Jesus, we're turning into such a nation of mé-feiners. Its seems to be all about self preservation/ self interest. Of course unpaid annual leave seems preferable to a straight pay cut, for personal reasons (12 extra days off, won't affect pension like a pay cut would). But I work for the public service and would still rather see the introduction of straight forward pay cut than this ridiculous cumpolsory leave proposal. We're stretched enough as it is with the recruitment ban, to meet our work objectives. But in fairness, I've just had a rake of pints, so you know yourself.....

 

[egg_]

The whole thing is such a phoney exercise

I think what's really going on is a kind of class war. The corporate class, represented by the likes of IBEC, Michael O'Leary and Eddie Hobbs, benefits from any worsening in the conditions of public sector workers, as they're the kinda gold standard for employee conditions and raise the bar for what's acceptable in the private sector. The deficit is actually only relevant as a lever to manipulate the media (and therefore the govt and public opinion)

 

[broken arm]

what's really going on is that Ireland is fucked in the head and you're all too busy blaming everyone else except for yourselves instead getting on with sortingthe country out.

now that you can't blame the english for being fucked up you are turning in on yourselves.

the fact that the public sector in inefficient, non-cost-effective and conditioned away from the reality of "market forces" is true and it is true in every country around the world.

should it be subject to "market forces"? No (in many areas)

does that mean it should be above transparency and efficiency? No

Should the public sector have a responsibility to show leadership while being subject to general economic conditions? Yes

Does this mean the public sector has to cut costs and improve efficiency? Yes

 

[egg_]

what's really going on is that Ireland is fucked in the head and you're all too busy blaming everyone else except for yourselves instead getting on with sorting the country out.

now that you can't blame the english for being fucked up you are turning in on yourselves.

Haha. Ay, indeed - but very few people are all that interested in sorting "the country" out, we're all just trying to further our own agendas, hence the very public power struggles

The struggle to manipulate the media (which the corporate class seems to be winning) has led to the gloom and doom being amplified. For example, there was a Behaviour and Attitudes survey in the Irish Times lately, and one of the numbers was for personal debt (excl mortgages) where it was found that 14% of those surveyed has personal debts of >€10K. 41% had no personal debt at all. The text of the article was expressing alarm about the level of personal debt in the country, but, really, is it so alarming that 14% of people have a car loan? I don't think so

I half suspect that most people (though not all, obviously) are going to come out of the recession saying "well that wasn't really so bad" the same way as most people came out of the boom saying "well that wasn't really so good"

 

[hugh]

I think what's really going on is a kind of class war. The corporate class, represented by the likes of IBEC, Michael O'Leary and Eddie Hobbs, benefits from any worsening in the conditions of public sector workers, as they're the kinda gold standard for employee conditions and raise the bar for what's acceptable in the private sector. The deficit is actually only relevant as a lever to manipulate the media (and therefore the govt and public opinion)

I think this is spot on. IBEC and many others of a similar outlook have managed to change the nature of the debate. We don't talk about why working conditions in the private sector are, in many cases, not as good as those in the public sector, we talk instead about why conditions in the public sector are better than those in the private sector, and consequently what can be done to bring them down. This is somewhat excusable at the moment, given the dire state of the country's finances, but the annoying thing is that they have been at this for years. The recession has now given them the upper hand in the argument.

 

[broken arm]

I think this is spot on. IBEC and many others of a similar outlook have managed to change the nature of the debate. We don't talk about why working conditions in the private sector are, in many cases, not as good as those in the public sector, we talk instead about why conditions in the public sector are better than those in the private sector, and consequently what can be done to bring them down. This is somewhat excusable at the moment, given the dire state of the country's finances, but the annoying thing is that they have been at this for years. The recession has now given them the upper hand in the argument.

is it possible for the private sector to have the same conditions as the public sector?

I don't think that it is.

We can talk about Ryanair and IBEC but the reality is that most businesses are small to medium sized businesses.

they don't set out to exploit people.

The cold reality is if they don't bring in the cash and they can't cut costs anywhere else they have to let people go or cut their pay.

I have met plenty of different compaines over the last year that have had to make very difficult, stressful and depressing decisions on their businesses and the people that work for them.

 

[Moods For Mallards]

I agree with egg_ and Hugh on that particular point. There has been a very, very forceful agenda carried through most popular media by IBEC and related interests for a number of years now. This is now their chance to push it to the forefront and they are definitely hammering that advantage home.
My sister runs a small business. It's not doing well. She is up-in-arms about the government and the public sector becasue it has become entrenched in her mind that public sector pay/inefficiency is the direct reason for her business struggling. A lot of people are peddling this kind of abstraction in the various petty rows I have with everyone nowadays.
People are angry, but they only pay lip service to the insanity of unfettered needless development, corruption and unregulated banking that built the house of cards. Most of them, I think, I have some idea that the goal is to rebuild the house of cards. I don't think it has hit home with the public that the system has ruined them, or at the very least teased them. It's incredibly how quickly the core of the problem has been forgotten.
The waste in the public sector has been exposed as a result of the collapse but it's madness to think (as people definitely do) that sorting out that mess is the panacea. As MDR pointed out, the figures don't even nearly add up on that front.
The frustrating thing is to know that no potential government will approach things substantially differently, ever.

 

[Moods For Mallards]

is it possible for the private sector to have the same conditions as the public sector?

I don't think that it is.

Then why the outrage that a large employer like the state creates good working conditions for its employees if the difference is understood?

 

[broken arm]

Then why the outrage that a large employer like the state creates good working conditions for its employees if the difference is understood?

has there been a comparative assessment on public sector working conditions and how workers perceive the relative benefits?

where would the state be on this list ? http://www.greatplacetowork.ie/best/list-ie-2008.htm

obviously the perception of a "job for life" is handy but there is no denying that if the public sector was run on private sector principles there would be lots of people looking for work.

but sure, at the end of the day, there are assholes on both sides of the divide.

and, re., your previous point. what exactly is the system?

 

[pete]

The cold reality is if they don't bring in the cash and they can't cut costs anywhere else they have to let people go or cut their pay.

or cut their staff's hours - which is exactly what the unions are proposing now - and nobody would be up in arms about the workers getting extra days off.

 

[broken arm]

or cut their staff's hours - which is exactly what the unions are proposing now - and nobody would be up in arms about the workers getting extra days off.

has anyone suggested how the public sector could generate new revenue streams by moving slack staff to new project development?

public service innovation?

or encourage spin-outs

or or or or

 

[MDR]

what should those reforms be?

A long story to be discussed over pints off-air.

I'll leave you with this thought: imagine if your local car garage was run by a person who promised every customer a great deal, spent hardly any time at the office, who changed his mind on a weekly basis, who didn't read any sales reports prepared form him and who didn't know much about the cars stocked in the garage. Imagine if his only measure of success was whether everyone in the area thought he was a great man to do business with and would always look after you if you needed a deal or needed something fixed. How long would that garage be in business?

 

[pete]

has anyone suggested how the public sector could generate new revenue streams by moving slack staff to new project development?

public service innovation?

or encourage spin-outs

or or or or

The vast bulk of the public service is there to provide a specific service, and isn't really geared towards innovation / creating new markets.

 

[Moods For Mallards]

and, re., your previous point. what exactly is the system?

Shorthand for the economic model we pursued for the last ten years, i.e. lax regulation allowing banks to offer easy credit for builders to pursue worthless, damaging development. I really think only lip service is paid to the irresponsibility of the whole thing. Isn't NAMA an attempt to "get credit flowing again", i.e. allow the same thing to start up again?

 

[ann post]

probably said this before on this thread, but calling it 'public vs. private' is silly, in a sort of 'if you except it as precedent, conditions will follow' kind of way. thought the turnout was pretty good based on how shit the weather is and how used the civils are to being outdoors.

what's really going on is that Ireland is fucked in the head and you're all too busy blaming everyone else except for yourselves instead getting on with sortingthe country out.

see that explains it better then i did.

i now agree with ro, in saying that we should fully adopt the industrial socialist/communist model pioneered in donegal in the 50's by fr. james mc dyer.

Fr. James McDyer (1910-1987) came to Gleann Cholm Cille in 1951. He saw that the community was dying.

Years of official disinterest and an almost complete absence of paid employment had taken their toll. There was no industry, no electricity, no public water supply and few tarred roads. Young people were emigrating when they left school.

A practical socialist, over the next thirty years Fr. McDyer campaigned tirelessly against official neglect of Gleann Cholm Cille and similar communities throughout the west.

At a time when central government saw multinational corporations as the solution to the spiralling unemployment and emigration, he championed the right of rural people to forge their own destinies and emphasized the importance of small community-based industries which developed local resources and skills.

He helped establish weaving, knitting and vegetable-processing factories and campaigned successfully for electricity and piped water schemes. The fish-processing factory in Mín an Aoire which provides seasonal employment to 200 people is a direct result of Fr. McDyer's work.

 

[F. Fred Palakon]

has there been a comparative assessment on public sector working conditions and how workers perceive the relative benefits?

where would the state be on this list ? http://www.greatplacetowork.ie/best/list-ie-2008.htm

There have been government Departments on that list in the past. The Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment were on it 2004-2006. It should be called the 'Best Places to Work in Ireland of the Places That Make Their Staff Fill in these Surveys'

 

[Froog]

A long story to be discussed over pints off-air.

I'll leave you with this thought: imagine if your local car garage was run by a person who promised every customer a great deal, spent hardly any time at the office, who changed his mind on a weekly basis, who didn't read any sales reports prepared form him and who didn't know much about the cars stocked in the garage. Imagine if his only measure of success was whether everyone in the area thought he was a great man to do business with and would always look after you if you needed a deal or needed something fixed. How long would that garage be in business?

is there a shop attached to the garage?

 

[egg_]

obviously the perception of a "job for life" is handy but there is no denying that if the public sector was run on private sector principles there would be lots of people looking for work.

What are "private sector principles"? I've done my fair share of skiving and messing in the private sector too. The efficient, well-oiled private sector firm with near-zero waste is a very rare beast

what exactly is the system?

I expect he's referring to the fact the recession in Ireland has been hugely exacerbated by the way our political and banking systems facilitated the housing bubble

We can talk about Ryanair and IBEC but the reality is that most businesses are small to medium sized businesses.

I don't see how this affects the fact that the IBEC lobby is attempting (and to some extent succeeding) to set the economic agenda for Ireland at the minute.

 

[pete]

We can talk about Ryanair and IBEC but the reality is that most businesses are small to medium sized businesses.

they don't set out to exploit people

but isn't that a reasonably accurate definition of capitalism?

 

[Lepra]

is there a shop attached to the garage?

yeah, do they do rolls?