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- #81
Hi needle, I'm not a punk, squatter or autonomen and have never been to Ungdomshuset. I do however have critical support for their campaign to win back their house and for full disclosure I am a libertarian-socialist.
From looking ahead through your post you are pretty insulting, this cavaet doesnt really excuse it. Hopefully in your reply you can leave out the insults/assumptions/inuendo.
Why shouldnt they get it for free? They expropriated the house from the government, they are revolutionaries who believe that the means of production should be expropriated by the workers for the creation of an egalitarian society, private property as enshrined in law doesnt justify itself for them. The house wasnt being used, there was a huge social movement that wanted a house to put it's ideas into action - so they took it over, fixed it up and ran it collectively. To contrast it with big business getting tax breaks is absurd, that happens because we live in a bourgeois democracy which obeys the laws of capital.
You're calling someone a "retard"? Nice one..
If the police attacked your friends, destroyed your house and stuck a national flag (a flag which stands against everything you believe in) on the roof of said house how would you feel? Someone saying "i hope a cop dies" on the net when they are enraged is hardly a statement to be taken too seriously. But congratulations on your strong moral stance, I assume you get equally enraged when people are murdered by the gardai?
Would you not make the same argument if these people worked? "oh, you're supporting the system". Would you rather that people starved? The reality of the society we live in is that you must sell your labour in order to be able to eat, socialise and have somewhere to stay. Living outside of that is a very difficult thing to do as capital controls all aspects of our lives, any examples of alternatives are usually crushed quite quickly see hungary 1956, paris 1968, free derry, catalonia, etc.. The idea is to organise as workers & unemployed for workers self-management of society rather than to live outside the system.
Some people do buy social centres the way you said, others prefer to just use abandoned buildings. The building actually was handed over to the youth of copenhagen and has had a long history of being used by the labour movement in the early 20th century.
What are you on about? There is nothing essentially wrong with hospitals, transport and schools etc. I have no idea why you would think we are against them, we would argue that they should be run for public need and not the profit motive though. By this I mean that the workers should have democratic control over hospitals, transport to run them more efficiently and in the interests of the public at large and not just those who can afford it. In spain the workers collectivised hospitals and public transport and ran them efficiently for the benefit of all, the lesson is there.
I dont know where you get your bizarre idea that it people are against the state and capital that they must live outside of society, the idea is to change it - not leave it behind.
I have no idea what that means, do you not agree with the democratic right to protest? Spreading the struggle of ungdomshuset internationally through solidarity actions is a great way to put more pressure on the danish government to back down.
Free education, unemployment benefits and all the stuff you listed are things that were won through struggle over the last 80 years, the idea that we should stop pushing for better lives because we live in the west is absolute crap. While we may live in a western country there are still huge contradictions within our society, the gap between rich and poor is huge and growing, our healthcare system is in tatters, trade unions are being destroyed through social-partnership, immigrant workers are being massively exploited, our transport system is fucked, gardai act with impunity, corporations like shell can act outside the law and lots more.
Wether or not people voted is hardly important and certainly doesnt remove their right to protest. The democratic system is much bigger than our parliamentary democracy which nearly half of the electorate dont participate in anyway.
What a bizarre statement. From my experience of punk/squatter communities there are very few people with drug problems and people are very open about addressing such problems. Ungdomshuset actually had a no-drugs policy, maybe you should stop smoking crack when you post on the internet though.
There's the word retards again. The IRA's so called cause was a reaction to an imperialist military occupation I believe? Not the best course of action I believe but not really relevant to this discussion either way.
As for treating pigs in a way you want them to treat you, doesnt really work they have a specific job to do and care little whether you are a pacifist or an autonome. I might counterpose that the police should treat us the way they want us to treat them. If they shoot gas then they shouldnt be shocked if they get a cobblestone in reply.
From looking ahead through your post you are pretty insulting, this cavaet doesnt really excuse it. Hopefully in your reply you can leave out the insults/assumptions/inuendo.
Why shouldnt they get it for free? They expropriated the house from the government, they are revolutionaries who believe that the means of production should be expropriated by the workers for the creation of an egalitarian society, private property as enshrined in law doesnt justify itself for them. The house wasnt being used, there was a huge social movement that wanted a house to put it's ideas into action - so they took it over, fixed it up and ran it collectively. To contrast it with big business getting tax breaks is absurd, that happens because we live in a bourgeois democracy which obeys the laws of capital.
You're calling someone a "retard"? Nice one..
If the police attacked your friends, destroyed your house and stuck a national flag (a flag which stands against everything you believe in) on the roof of said house how would you feel? Someone saying "i hope a cop dies" on the net when they are enraged is hardly a statement to be taken too seriously. But congratulations on your strong moral stance, I assume you get equally enraged when people are murdered by the gardai?
Would you not make the same argument if these people worked? "oh, you're supporting the system". Would you rather that people starved? The reality of the society we live in is that you must sell your labour in order to be able to eat, socialise and have somewhere to stay. Living outside of that is a very difficult thing to do as capital controls all aspects of our lives, any examples of alternatives are usually crushed quite quickly see hungary 1956, paris 1968, free derry, catalonia, etc.. The idea is to organise as workers & unemployed for workers self-management of society rather than to live outside the system.
Some people do buy social centres the way you said, others prefer to just use abandoned buildings. The building actually was handed over to the youth of copenhagen and has had a long history of being used by the labour movement in the early 20th century.
What are you on about? There is nothing essentially wrong with hospitals, transport and schools etc. I have no idea why you would think we are against them, we would argue that they should be run for public need and not the profit motive though. By this I mean that the workers should have democratic control over hospitals, transport to run them more efficiently and in the interests of the public at large and not just those who can afford it. In spain the workers collectivised hospitals and public transport and ran them efficiently for the benefit of all, the lesson is there.
I dont know where you get your bizarre idea that it people are against the state and capital that they must live outside of society, the idea is to change it - not leave it behind.
I have no idea what that means, do you not agree with the democratic right to protest? Spreading the struggle of ungdomshuset internationally through solidarity actions is a great way to put more pressure on the danish government to back down.
Free education, unemployment benefits and all the stuff you listed are things that were won through struggle over the last 80 years, the idea that we should stop pushing for better lives because we live in the west is absolute crap. While we may live in a western country there are still huge contradictions within our society, the gap between rich and poor is huge and growing, our healthcare system is in tatters, trade unions are being destroyed through social-partnership, immigrant workers are being massively exploited, our transport system is fucked, gardai act with impunity, corporations like shell can act outside the law and lots more.
Wether or not people voted is hardly important and certainly doesnt remove their right to protest. The democratic system is much bigger than our parliamentary democracy which nearly half of the electorate dont participate in anyway.
What a bizarre statement. From my experience of punk/squatter communities there are very few people with drug problems and people are very open about addressing such problems. Ungdomshuset actually had a no-drugs policy, maybe you should stop smoking crack when you post on the internet though.
There's the word retards again. The IRA's so called cause was a reaction to an imperialist military occupation I believe? Not the best course of action I believe but not really relevant to this discussion either way.
As for treating pigs in a way you want them to treat you, doesnt really work they have a specific job to do and care little whether you are a pacifist or an autonome. I might counterpose that the police should treat us the way they want us to treat them. If they shoot gas then they shouldnt be shocked if they get a cobblestone in reply.
