RAG Party this Sat 10th Nov (5 Viewers)

[Janer]

Yeah right.

 

[spuded]

ok, since everyone else would rather make in-jokes and comments about turning lezzers straight (woo-arrgh) and the vagaries of stephen doyle, i'll introduce some issues.

problems i've had with male sexual behaviour:

sense of entitlement to intercourse
selfishness with regard to orgasm
irritating objectification (aka grabbing, sense of ownership of woman)
patronising attitude to concerns of woman - e.g. you don't want to do what i want, therefore you're repressed/boring/unadventurous (aka i'm annoyed you won't let me ride you up the arse).

can we talk about this, or is it less urgent than discussions of pop songs and crass line-ups?

ive just read this whole thread and to be honest im baffled by some people's opinions but i think they one above is stranger than most, i would have absolutely no problem if it had started off with 'problems i've had with other people's sexual behaviour' because i for one will say that I have felt all the above off women at several points in my life, both in casual relationships and ones that are more long-term.

Also i've had to adapt to situations where what the person wanted was not necessarily something I wanted to do however I took a long look at myself and questioned why I (I being the important word here) felt uncomfortable. It's easy to just blame these things on men but to actually have to re-assess what people want personally from sex is something we all need to do from time to time. In a sense i guess i'm saying a sexual relationship at 16 or whatever is very very different than one at 25 for a lot of people.

I'm rambling a bit here, but it's hard to express exactly what i'm saying without getting to graphic on a messageboard. But hey i'll just give one example. In one of my job's a female client tried to sexually molest me, what was the reaction of my peers, colleagues and manager, to laugh it off, then they asked me to write an equality policy, I refused, stating that when the exact (and i mean exact) same thing had happened to a female staff member the client was removed from the building and barred. I however was made feel weak and pathetic for being anyway upset about the situation.

basically all i'm saying is that vast generalisations on what men do or what women do are just fucking stupid and retarded

 

[Cormcolash]

They were the pages I was talking about, s. Reading it again I can see I went overboard. It's clearly a list of traits to look out for and not the 'spot the potential rapist article' I somehow remembered. I definitely think that using this list as a strict basis for deciding who is safe to hang out with will mean being a living the life of a hermit in Dublin, but there isn't anywhere to suggest that anyone should.

What I remembered from the article was that it suggested that people with occasional mood swings, who would dole out slags, take drugs and binge drink could possibly be a rapist. This would mean I'd have to dump most of my mates! But as I said, it's not like it's trying to be a definitive guide.

I've been too harsh on the whole piece though. I'm still not mad about it, but so what. I hope everyone involved can see where I'm coming from and also see I wasn't trying to belittle RAG and what it stands for but just trying to tackle a very sensitive matter in a very insensitive way, which is how I nearly always do things!

I can't be arsed reading the article itself but having just read the sidebar to it there I would say that the traits mentioned are to a large part exactly the same traits attributed to a lot of people who suffer from any form of depression.

 

[Cormcolash]

I can sum up 21st century life as a guy in the Western world for you - it's grand; it has its ups and downs, its benefits and its shortfalls. I appreciate life for women is different. I don't think there's a need for a zine collective to explore male issues because I don't think it's something male readers would find essential reading. If it was an appealing read to women then they'd be misled by the articles simply because most men would be nothing like the little emo-boy who wrote it!

The "Nuts" zine collective is pretty good for male issues these days.

 

[the strange guy]

It'll be interesting to see what issues the male RAG will cover or if it is more of a solidarity group. Will it have fighting, building and hunting guides or will it have a tutorial on being sensitive? :b

 

[Buzzo]

In one of my job's a female client tried to sexually molest me, what was the reaction of my peers, colleagues and manager, to laugh it off, then they asked me to write an equality policy, I refused, stating that when the exact (and i mean exact) same thing had happened to a female staff member the client was removed from the building and barred. I however was made feel weak and pathetic for being anyway upset about the situation.

basically all i'm saying is that vast generalisations on what men do or what women do are just fucking stupid and retarded

Hey Ed, that's pretty fucked up. It's a horrible thing to happen and sounds like your bosses handled it quite badly. I've been in the same situation and it's poxy. I don't mean to depersonalise your situation, but I think it illustrates the fact that there clearly is a problem with the concept and expectations of 'maleness' in Western societies, even when you're a victim of this shit. You're supposed to either be a man and enjoy it because men LOVE sex regardless of what form it takes, or because you're a man and should be able to stand up for yourself.

I don't think you can separate this expectation of maleness from the fact that it is predominantly (but not explicitly) men who sexually molest and rape women. This isn't a vast generalisation, it's the truth. Power is an expectation of maleness. It doesn't make it any less traumatic for men who are the victims of molestation and rape, but it's dangerous to let this obscure the fact that sexual violence/molesting/predatoriness (in that sense) is a predominantly male behaviour. Not only that, but it is men who predominantly precipitate violence against one another (if someone starts saying 'women are becoming increasingly violent', I'll get my criminology boots on and discuss the gaping lack of evidence for this oft quoted 'fact').

The gender expectation thing isn't just crap for women. It's mostly men who end up homless and in prison. It's mostly men who end up getting the lard beaten out of them on the street. Men suffer unreasonable and unfair expectations because of their gender too (sexual prowess, physical strength, money etc). I think a male collective/magazine would have shit loads to look at and shit loads to talk about that they mightn't feel comfortable discussing in the presence of women.

Feminism/adressing gender inequality is for everybody dudes.

Oh, and, I read some of the new RAG last night- it's fuckin awesome, well done everyone.

 

[Bastard Eoin]

It'll be interesting to see what issues the male RAG will cover or if it is more of a solidarity group. Will it have fighting, building and hunting guides or will it have a tutorial on being sensitive? :b

Yeah, I'd say all of the above and a fantasy football league as well...along with the obligatory "hot or not" section and horoscopes.

 

[São Paulo Punk]

The gender expectation thing isn't just crap for women. It's mostly men who end up homless and in prison. It's mostly men who end up getting the lard beaten out of them on the street. Men suffer unreasonable and unfair expectations because of their gender too (sexual prowess, physical strength, money etc). I think a male collective/magazine would have shit loads to look at and shit loads to talk about that they mightn't feel comfortable discussing in the presence of women.

Feminism/adressing gender inequality is for everybody dudes.

Yep, most of this came up in the workshop/talk/informal chat (whatever the fuck you want to call it) about gender and socialisation.

The difficulty is that the term 'feminist' automatically generates an impression in a lot of peoples minds that it is something that relates, concerns and involves women only. Then, this misperception gets further compounded when people discover that RAG is an exclusively 'female' project and prohibits direct 'male' participation.

There are serious hurdles blocking guys from forming a discussion group about gender issues, the main one being that they'er not supposed to be 'emotional' or want to talk about the difficulties of keeping up with their gender expectations. It would probably involve a lot of cans.

I think that the much higher rates of male suicide compared to female says a lot about the need for us dudes to be able to talk about our feelings more.

Let the slagging begin.

 

[the strange guy]

My girlfriend is a feminist, without a doubt, through and through. But say it to her and she'll be raging! She hates 'feminists' because as far as she's concerned they are more about gender separation (ie female only events) and exploring women's issues exclusively rather than being inclusive and exploring these issues with men. Basically she feels that feminism is sexist because it is defined by its sexism. I think she gets an air of the S.C.U.M. manifesto whenever she hears 'feminism'. I'd disagree, but that's how she feels.

I think there's a lot more women out there who feel the same way and that dropping the 'men out' policy would attract more female members.

As Owensão pointed out, the misperception of feminism by many people (including Ailbhe) that it is an exclusively female endeavour isn't helped by RAG's policy of excluding men.

I think as a group, at least with my close friends, most guys I know don't have trouble showing emotion or talking about what's up in their lives, their fears or worries. They're all moany fuckers.

 

[spuded]

Hey Ed, that's pretty fucked up. It's a horrible thing to happen and sounds like your bosses handled it quite badly. I've been in the same situation and it's poxy. I don't mean to depersonalise your situation, but I think it illustrates the fact that there clearly is a problem with the concept and expectations of 'maleness' in Western societies, even when you're a victim of this shit. You're supposed to either be a man and enjoy it because men LOVE sex regardless of what form it takes, or because you're a man and should be able to stand up for yourself.
.

Thanks Buzzo sadly the whole irony (well not ironic in general but in the sense of this topic) all my co-workers and my manager were women, who maybe should've been a bit more sympathetic. In the line of work I do it is far more likely (and has been proven statistically) for a male staff member to be falsely accused of sexual harassment and molestation of a client, and it is something I fear at a huge level as I have known one worker who was falsely accused of molestation, and had to be off work for 18 months until it was proven he did not do it, wasn't allowed to leave the country and also generally just had the whole issue hanging over his head for that length of time.

anyway i'm chaning topic a bit there

 

[the strange guy]

I think what Nooly and Spuded have to say about gender, sex and the expectations of others regarding your sex are relevant to both sexes. These issues can't be addressed properly amid layers of subtexts, rules and regulations which prohibit who can and can't contribute to the discussion.

Feminism/adressing gender inequality is for everybody dudes.

I totally agree, but RAG isn't for everybody and doesn't pretend to be.

I won't be buying one because I don't support their policy of exclusion, but I'll certainly read one if it was lying around.
Similarly I wouldn't buy a magazine which explores the issue of economic migrants in Ireland if Irish people weren't allowed to contribute; not a fantastic example but close enough I think.

 

[Willie Willions]

Don't diss the S.C.U.M - anything that urges murderous rampage is good in my book:

"If SCUM ever marches, it will be over the Presidant's stupid, sickening face;
.If SCUM ever strikes, it will be with a six-inch blade..."

 

[the strange guy]

Similarly I wouldn't buy a magazine which explores the issue of economic migrants in Ireland if Irish people weren't allowed to contribute; not a fantastic example but close enough I think.

No, wait. How about a magazine about how Irish life has changed with the influx of immigrants except that immigrants can't contribute. That's a way harsher example so I'll stick with that.

 

[Buzzo]

No, wait. How about a magazine about how Irish life has changed with the influx of immigrants except that immigrants can't contribute. That's a way harsher example so I'll stick with that.

It's a bit of a stretch comparing that to a group of anarchist women wanting to meet with other anarchist women to discuss the experience of being an anarachist and being a woman and excluding men/people who aren't anarchists.

I'd define myself as feminist, but not anarchist. I don't think it's appropriate for me to badger RAG into providing a space for me to explore my political issues, or berate them if they don't, I'll just go generate my own space in which to explore this shit. Nor is it appropriate for men to badger them for space to explore their gender issues or berate them if they don't facilitate it.

 

[the strange guy]

I'm not comparing RAG to a magazine like 'Weekly Irish Life With The Nigerians & Poles' just that I wouldn't buy either of them for their editorial principles rather than their content.

I don't think anyone is badgering RAG to allow them into the group. I feel that people are voicing their opinion on the hypocrisy of an exclusive group claiming to be 'for everyone'. Some people find it odd that something which claims to break down preconceptions and address gender inequality itself enforces these issues rigorously. Whether it's right or wrong is a matter for RAG itself and all we can do is watch from the sidelines and have our own discussions about it.

Would anything be achieved if men were allowed to write for RAG? Well the whole concept of RAG would fall about its ears for one thing. The point is that RAG is a partisan publication but tries not to be and some people get worked up about that.

Whatever RAG's policies are, they don't really affect anyone else at the end of the day. I find it an interesting discussion though and, sure, isn't that why everyone's here? A bit of a chit-chat.

 

[broken arm]

[video=google;1329362959167995041]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1329362959167995041&hl=en[/video]

 

[pete]

[SIZE=-1]"I DON'T WANT TO BELONG TO ANY CLUB THAT WILL ACCEPT ME AS A MEMBER"
- Groucho Marx
[/SIZE]

 

[therealjohnny]

“Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.”

[SIZE=-1]
Groucho Marx
[/SIZE]

 

[Space]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1329362959167995041&hl=en

That's the biggest "Flight of the conchords" rip off I've ever seen, actually it's probably the biggest ripoff I've ever seen.

 

[therealjohnny]

That clip's been aournd a good while though..posted 2 years ago


p.s.

“Hey! Instead of growing a moustache..how's about i just paint one on?”

[SIZE=-1]
Groucho Marx
[/SIZE]