Police officer dies in Italian soccer riot (1 Viewer)

[Janer]

I dunno about the Israeli's but a lot of them US soldiers are young men coming from economically disadvantaged backgrounds with no other option but to join the army or else pretty much live on the street so I don't think its right to celebrate their individual deaths.

So basically ur saying they have no brain/media access?

 

[nlgbbbblth]

I dunno about the Israeli's but a lot of them US soldiers are young men coming from economically disadvantaged backgrounds with no other option but to join the army or else pretty much live on the street so I don't think its right to celebrate their individual deaths.

Doesn't excuse the fact that they are fighting an illegal war and killing innocent Iraqi citizens (who also come from economically disadvantaged circumstances).
If it were a conscription situation then maybe, but it's not.
And they must take personal responsibility for their actions.

 

[nlgbbbblth]

I dunno about the Israeli's but a lot of them US soldiers are young men coming from economically disadvantaged backgrounds with no other option but to join the army or else pretty much live on the street so I don't think its right to celebrate their individual deaths.

also:

are you saying

they're working class so they don't know any better. Also, that excuses their warcrimes.

If so - that's somewhat patronising and insulting.

Following on from this, I don't think the following quote was a joke.

hahaha i know this got who is as south dub as the rest of us but goes around saying she was born in crumlin and had a hard hard life to impress crusties

 

[Corm]

It's different with a lot of U.S. soldiers, it's true that the military is the only option for many. Plenty of them joined only to get an education, fucking war breaks out, they get sent to die in the desert thousands of miles from home, for rich cunts profits. Fuck that, there's little to no choice in that, don't take the bait and blame the pawns, it's the politicians and businessmen who deserve the blame.

Pigs are pigs cos they chose to uphold the system, they know what they're getting into and doing, they're the ones who uphold the property and power relations. The difference is that with a soldier many of them are joining only to feed themselves & their family and get an education paid for by the military so they can have a life they otherwise have no hope of, and only for 3-5 years for most. They don't want to go to war, with a few dumb exceptions I'm sure. With a cop, they join for life, knowing the full implications, and with the full knowledge that instead of there being the possibility of being sent to war, that they WILL for sure be in active duty in the constant war waged by the rich & privileged against the socially disadvantaged. No excuses, burn pig burn.

 

[rape the drummer]

they're working class so they don't know any better. Also, that excuses their warcrimes.

If so - that's somewhat patronising and insulting.

obviously i'm not saying that, because if i was saying that i would have, ya know, actually said it. Its just a simple fact that some of these people dont have much other choice- some people have to be more concerned with feeding and clothing themselves without having the luxury to complain from their computer about an illegal war. I'm totally opposed to the war and once celebrated the deaths of US soldiers myself but I realised fairly quickly that quite a number of them are pursuing the only available option for a job/some kind of training in a profession. I'm sure the majority of them dont want to be there and probably now wish they never joined the army but at the time of joining I'm sure it was made look a lot more appealing by the recruiters i.e.- war will be over in a few months, then you can get training as an electrician etc. etc.

Also the soldiers themselves are the lesser war criminals than the people in government actually pursuing the war who are also the ones whos policies contribute to creating the economic disadvantage in many areas of the country which provides them with their base for soldiers to fight their war as they are leaving these people with few other options- an intentional measure which they are fully aware is providing them with the large number of soldiers they manage to recruit. As well- yeah there are some fucking meatheads over there who love it fighting for their country etc.- we've all seen them on the news..... but I bet they never get killed- sods fucking law eh,

 

[rape the drummer]

It's different with a lot of U.S. soldiers, it's true that the military is the only option for many. Plenty of them joined only to get an education, fucking war breaks out, they get sent to die in the desert thousands of miles from home, for rich cunts profits. Fuck that, there's little to no choice in that, don't take the bait and blame the pawns, it's the politicians and businessmen who deserve the blame.

Pigs are pigs cos they chose to uphold the system, they know what they're getting into and doing, they're the ones who uphold the property and power relations. The difference is that with a soldier many of them are joining only to feed themselves & their family and get an education paid for by the military so they can have a life they otherwise have no hope of, and only for 3-5 years for most. They don't want to go to war, with a few dumb exceptions I'm sure. With a cop, they join for life, knowing the full implications, and with the full knowledge that instead of there being the possibility of being sent to war, that they WILL for sure be in active duty in the constant war waged by the rich & privileged against the socially disadvantaged. No excuses, burn pig burn.

Ah yeah corm but early retirement and a great pension- ya can't beat it like. Wanna join? Think i'll head down to Pearse Street tomorrow and ask about upcoming vacancies.

 

[Malarky]

Some of the ways the American army recruiters go about their business is fucking vicious as well. Lying bastards.

 

[Corm]

obviously i'm not saying that, because if i was saying that i would have, ya know, actually said it. Its just a simple fact that some of these people dont have much other choice- some people have to be more concerned with feeding and clothing themselves without having the luxury to complain from their computer about an illegal war. I'm totally opposed to the war and once celebrated the deaths of US soldiers myself but I realised fairly quickly that quite a number of them are pursuing the only available option for a job/some kind of training in a profession. I'm sure the majority of them dont want to be there and probably now wish they never joined the army but at the time of joining I'm sure it was made look a lot more appealing by the recruiters i.e.- war will be over in a few months, then you can get training as an electrician etc. etc.

Also the soldiers themselves are the lesser war criminals than the people in government actually pursuing the war who are also the ones whos policies contribute to creating the economic disadvantage in many areas of the country which provides them with their base for soldiers to fight their war as they are leaving these people with few other options- an intentional measure which they are fully aware is providing them with the large number of soldiers they manage to recruit. As well- yeah there are some fucking meatheads over there who love it fighting for their country etc.- we've all seen them on the news..... but I bet they never get killed- sods fucking law eh,

bang on.

 

[Janer]

Of course the politicians/government are more to blame but I am so fed up of hearing this they only joined for the medicare/education bullshit......
I read up on all these soldiers that die here
http://icasualties.org/oif/prdDetails.aspx?hndRef=2-2007
alot of them def come from well to do areas....and even the ones that don't shoulda realised by now what lays instore for them.....so if they still insist on signing up their gobshytes.
Also I have numerous videos of US soldiers behaviour over in Iraq......raping/killing/looting/shooting dogs/teasing kids (and their the ones caught on camera)

as Wattie famously said
Fuck The USA.

 

[Malarky]

I read up on all these soldiers that die here...alot of them def come from well to do areas....

Wow, you looked up all 2524 of them? That's some research. Or are you just making it up?

 

[Janer]

4 years.............who said it was all done overnite?
and don't call me a liar again cockface.

 

[Squiggle]

Patriotism is a funny thing guys. It's amazing the atrocities people will commit under its influence. Football hooliganism, police brutality, wartime hate crimes... all of it is down to patriotism of one sort or another.

"You're either with us or against us", "friend or foe"... we've all heard those sayings. You become part of a group... so you go along with the group... you might not always agree but everyone outside the group is wrong/stupid/ugly/wears ugly clothes/listens to the wrong music (whatever) so they are inferior anyway... serves them right yeah?

Down with Patriotism!!

 

[BC]

i would say patriotism is one of the ugliest and unhealthy results of what i believe to be the core of so many problems: the concept of the nation, and nationalism. as it stands, war is essential to the maintainance of modern society, necessary in both psychological and economical ways.

the whole concept of a nation depends on the hostility of another nation on the other side of the line (dualism being the bed-rock of socio-religious methods of control: good and evil, communism, fascism etc).

i would say it is the whole formula of the nation that is holding the world back. we are confined within the prisons of nations, forced to obey laws to which we have not consented, and to pay exorbitant taxes to maintain the prisons in which we are confined. the pretext that there is any measure of consent involved or benifits received is wearing very thin indeed. many of the most disastrous decisions in human history have been made by a few incompetent, ill-informed and ill-intentioned men.

 

[Malarky]

Janer, you're a big fat liar. There's no way you looked up each soldier fatality, then mapped that to the area they grew up in, then found out if that was a wealthy neighbourhood or not. You're talking out your arse.

 

[spuded]

ive never really bought the line on people being drafted economically, yes i know people from very disadvantaged backgrounds join the army to try and 'improve' their lot. However I don't think the difference between someone having a shitty low paid job, or having to sell drugs or hustle and shit compared joining the army is really worth the lives of the tens of thousands of iraqis who have died. I got to know a fair few people from the states who joined the army and at the end of the day for a lot of them it was a simple decision, in alot of people's minds it was a good career choice, a good way to get out of a shit town/shit family life (in many cases gettin away from getting inot a drug addicted lifestyle), or a good way of getting an education. none of these reasons excuse what american soldiers are doing in iraq.

as for israeli soldiers i think thats an entirely different matter.

 

[Janer]

Janer, you're a big fat liar. There's no way you looked up each soldier fatality, then mapped that to the area they grew up in, then found out if that was a wealthy neighbourhood or not. You're talking out your arse.

Er where did I say each soldier?
I used the word "these"
like an opinion poll you take a random sample to get a fairly good concenus (give or take an error of -4 or +4 )

 

[Janer]

I also used these maps
http://icasualties.org/oif/USMap.aspx
http://icasualties.org/oif/US_CITY.aspx
http://icasualties.org/oif/Statecity.aspx

 

[Malarky]

Hahaha. Janer, you're clearly lying. Those maps give a breakdown of each state and city the soldiers are from, not from what neighbourhoods. And even if you did know what neighbourhood they were from, I suppose you have extensive knowledge of how run down/well off each American suburb is? And that particular families upbringing?! Give it up mate, before you dig yourself any deeper.

 

[rape the drummer]

Of course the politicians/government are more to blame but I am so fed up of hearing this they only joined for the medicare/education bullshit......

a slap in the face to thousands of Americans who joined the army due to the fact it was seemingly the only viable thing for them to do unless they wanted to become homeless or start a life dealing drugs

and so what if you looked up the individual deaths of which soldiers fucking died janer? do you want us all to do that and cheer when the guy was rich but mourn when he was poor?

 

[Corm]

I still think it's all too blinkered chaps (and chapettes).

With a cop, you can always say they joined with the best of intentions and then got corrupted, but they were still entering into a system that clearly privileges the rich over the poor.

With a soldier, specifically in the U.S., many of those who sign up don't know what they're getting into at all. Why do you think there's such a huge media blackout on hearing these soldiers' voices? Many of them feel just like they've been sold up the river.

You can say that you're treating people as if they're stupid, or presuming you're smarter than them, or whatever, but that doesn't change the fact that the propaganda machine in the States is beyond anything you can imagine. Growing up in a normal American patriotic family without having the luck to trip into punk or anarchy or left-wing politics, which is often just that, random luck (or a curse), then how can people be expected to believe anything other than that which they are told by their TV, family, friends and leaders every day for their whole lives? If you add this to the economic situation which forces people into the military, then you're not left with much of a "choice".

The imperialist war going on has nothing to do with those on the ground over there. They're victims as much as the ones they're fighting against. The atrocities and violence against children and innocent people are a natural part of war. That's just war. Many of these soldiers are young, scared, uneducated, and of course that's going to be their reaction. Have you ever done anything you weren't proud of, teasing people, laughing along with bullying, whatever? Imagine what that turns into in a war, where anyone around you might want to kill you, where they've already killed your best mates, and where you're told they're the enemy, all the time.

It's very interesting to read accounts of soldiers who fought in Vietnam in order to gain an insight into what's going on now. The difference is that many of them had NO idea what they were fighting for, whereas nowadays people think they're actually fighting for freedom and against terrorism.

Blaming the victims when it's the politicians who are the cause.