Official Thumped position on Lisbon (1 Viewer)

[Moods For Mallards]

I voted yes and I'll be voting yes again.

I don't buy into the notion that reholding the treaty is undemocratic. I accept there are lots of valid reasons to oppose the treaty, depending on your world view, I also believe lots of people voted no for the wrong reasons.

Some people, not all, opposed the treaty because
-They didn't bother reading up on it so thought they were better voting no
-Unfounded concerns about abortion
-Unfounded claims about conscription
-Unfounded claims about taxation

If the referendum was reheld with a better informed electorate, it would be democracy working well.
-

But the game is skewed in favour of one outcome: otherwise, conversely, the referendum would be reheld if there was a yes vote initially?
What about people who voted yes just because the major parties campaigned for it? Is that 'the right reason'?

 

[platters]

ok.
can we have one list of the things people don't like about Lisbon?
an approximation on the % of Irish people that share those same concerns?
a scoring/ranking of those concerns in relation to scope and risk?
and some form of a workable solution in the context of an enlarged Europe - especially for the economically disadvantaged countries.
- the list should be accurate and referenced to specific sections of the treaty (and extended relevant references)
thanks

At this stage I'm sick of all the negative reasons the various organisations are spouting out about the issue. Especially from the yes side you would expect them to be able to sell the treaty using positive language. This has yet to materialise in the media so I'm now trying to collate it myself. Here's a message I've sent to everybody involved in the 2008 campaigns on both sides;
"Re the top 10 positive reasons to vote in the forthcoming Lisbon Treaty referendum


Dear *,

I am an Irish Citizen interested in voting in the forthcoming Lisbon Treaty referendum. I noted that the previous Lisbon Treaty debate was dominated by negativity as it was played out in our national press and media outlets.

In order to make a better and more positively informed decision this time around I am trying to collate each of the participating organisation's top 10 positive reasons to vote for or against the ratification of the treaty by the Irish people. I plan to share the information provided by each of the organisations with my friends and family so that we can better discuss it amongst ourselves and arrive at our own conclusions about which way to vote. I may also submit the responses to other media outlets for publication.

Please can you outline your organisation's top 10 positive reasons to vote for or against the ratification of the Lisbon Treaty in the forthcoming referendum. Please can you also place your responses in order of priority where 1 is the most important reason and 10 is the 10th most important reason to vote for or against the Treaty. I also ask you point out which Article within the treaty your responses pertain to and where these reasons can be found within the said Articles.

Thanks in advance for your response.

Sincerely,"

A few of them have got back to me already, but none yet were able to point to Articles within the treaty, which would be a way of qualifying whether they're taking bollox or not. Strangely Libertas are not even contactable anymore. When I have all the responses I'll probably post them up here.
BTW, I voted no last time. This time my head says yes, but my heart still says no.

 

[ratmonkey]

Especially from the yes side you would expect them to be able to sell the treaty using positive language.

It's kind of hard to sell slightly more efficient bureaucracy.

 

[Wobbler]

For me personally and I reckon a very rapidly increasing crowd of people in this forsaken isle (possibly even a majority at this juncture) putting the orish "pro-life" prohibition at the heart of E U law would actually be another decisive reason (maybe the decisive reason) for voting no!

That's a fair point. I wholeheartedly believe in a woman's right to choose.

My point is that a lot of people seem to have voted against the treaty because they feared it would lead to abortion being legalised (I wish) in this country. These people's fears were (unfortunately) misplaced.

 

[platters]

That's a fair point. I wholeheartedly believe in a woman's right to choose.

My point is that a lot of people seem to have voted against the treaty because they feared it would lead to abortion being legalised (I wish) in this country. These people's fears were (unfortunately) misplaced.

according to Wikipedia only 2% voted no with this reason in mind

 

[Wobbler]

But the game is skewed in favour of one outcome: otherwise, conversely, the referendum would be reheld if there was a yes vote initially?
What about people who voted yes just because the major parties campaigned for it? Is that 'the right reason'?

Indeed.

But there's a subtle difference here. Both, I'd describe as incorrect but voting for or against something on falsely held beliefs is, in my view, a bigger error than voting for or against something because someone you (perhaps mistakenly trust) tells you to.

 

[Wobbler]

according to Wikipedia only 2% voted no with this reason in mind

And would these people have voted yes otherwise or abstained?

If they voted yes, that would have led to a 4% swing.

What percentage of people voted no based on misplaced fears on conscription?

What was no's margin of victory?

 

[platters]

And would these people have voted yes otherwise or abstained?

If they voted yes, that would have led to a 4% swing.

What percentage of people voted no based on misplaced fears on conscription?

What was no's margin of victory?

I agree that this is an important demographic, but all I'm trying to point out is that the anti-abortion vote was exaggerated in the media, particularly in the non-domestic. Likewise with the conscription issue.

 

[platters]

I can't remember reading in any non-Irish publication that not fully understanding the treaty was the main reason people gave for their no vote: 40% according to Wiki

 

[Wobbler]

What about people who voted yes just because the major parties campaigned for it? Is that 'the right reason'?

I'd also argue that a significant proportion of the electorate voted against the treaty because the major parties were for it. That's no more 'the right reason' than what you suggest above.

 

[rettucs]

I don't buy into the notion that reholding the treaty is undemocratic

what happens if the No vote carries again? Another referendum next May?

would that be democratic?

how many times would the government have to push this on us before we realise that our 'say' in this is nothing more than tokenistic?

I think eventually it will carry because people will be sick of all the money being wasted to rehold this referendum.

Like those information leaflets which they'll have to reprint a couple of million copies of, that state nothing new or that wasn't on the leaflets they printed first time around.

 

[Wobbler]

I think eventually it will carry because people will be sick of all the money being wasted to rehold this referendum.

.

Well, there'll be exit polls after the election. We'll see then whether people voted yes because they were concerned about the cost of future referenda on this issue. My instinct is that the amount of people who alter their vote on this issue will be minisculce, but we'll see.

 

[rettucs]

But the game is skewed in favour of one outcome: otherwise

It is. But the beauty of this particular case is that ignorance favours the other viewpoint.

Thats why the No vote has a great chance of carrying.

Already the government have come out and said that we stand a better chance of getting through this recession if we vote yes. Thats utter scaremongering. If they could back it up by referencing some part of the treaty which could convince us they're right, then maybe, but they didn't and they haven't.

It will be as you were first time around but with the absence of the big Libertas money machine, the No scaremongering might not carry the same punch.

I can see lots of reasons to vote Yes from my limited knowledge of things. They're all based around potential good (or not wanting to ruffle feathers) that having the treaty in place might cause/do. All my No fears are based around ignorance or claims from scaremongerers. And I think thats typical of most people and in my book I reckon thats what swung the vote. That and to teach the government a lesson.

Given this they should know from lessons learned how to get the treaty ratified. I'm not sure they have though. At least I see no evidence of it yet, though it is early days.

Didn't Brian Lenihan admit he never read the treaty before the last referendum? I wonder if hes read it since.

 

[krossie]

indeed

These people's fears were (unfortunately) misplaced.

!!! )

Indeed and if it could be proved that Lisbon was bringing abortion in through the back door to Ireland I would vote yes immediately!

Unfortunately if these guarantees come in with a yes vote then that day is even further away...

kp

(I'd also agree that actually the abortion issue wasn't a big one last time with most voters - I also, also (!) think that its going to be a much clearer left/right divide this time and that Yes will take it narrowly..

Mind you that was my prediction last time too and how wrong I was!)

 

[Wobbler]

Already the government have come out and said that we stand a better chance of getting through this recession if we vote yes.

I can see lots of reasons to vote Yes from my limited knowledge of things. They're all based around potential good (or not wanting to ruffle feathers)

That's it though. There's every possibility that our economy will be bankrupt in the next 12 months. We may need to be bailed out.

 

[nooleen]

we should declare independence from europe and become a rogue state, flicking snots and bits of cheese sandwich at europe from the margins

 

[rettucs]

North Korea might bail us out.

If we let them build a few Air Bases here.

 

[maims bond]

according to Wikipedia only 2% voted no with this reason in mind

I voted no last time, but now Robbie Keane is backing a yes vote, i'm sold! YES TO LISBON.

 

[platters]

IMO this tactic of wheeling out celebrities is not good either. I want them to sell the treaty on it's own merits. I know it's hard to sell slightly more efficient bureaucracy as ratmonkey said, but these are all straw man arguments.

 

[Unknown Convict]

denis hickie says vote yes, or there will be blood