Official Thumped position on Lisbon (1 Viewer)

[Bunny]

we should declare independence from europe and become a rogue state, flicking snots and bits of cheese sandwich at europe from the margins

Yes. well we were one of the only places not conquered by the Romans because they thought we were savages, and the weather was shit. We could easily slip back into it.

 

[ratmonkey]

denis hickie says vote yes, or there will be blood

Denis Hickie also says to buy Wavin pipes.

 

[platters]

so the blood can flow!

 

[ratmonkey]

Just one of many uses for Wavin pipes.

 

[Froog]

Lisbon: make the right connection.

 

[platters]

you're wavin a laugh

 

[krossie]

I voted no last time, but now Robbie Keane is backing a yes vote, i'm sold! YES TO LISBON.

Has ROY Keane been approached yet - that'd be fun!

Wags on newstalk have it that Robbie was a wee bit mixed up and thought he was signing for sporting Lisbon

kp

 

[Lili Marlene]

I'd like to hear what Green Goblin thinks about this

 

[Wobbler]

I'd like to hear what Green Goblin thinks about this

I'm pretty sure I'm the problem. Or maybe that's about something else.

 

[avernus]

At least this time Declan Ganley won't be around to yack on about voting No.

 

[Milker]

I don't buy into the notion that reholding the treaty is undemocratic. I accept there are lots of valid reasons to oppose the treaty, depending on your world view, I also believe lots of people voted no for the wrong reasons.

Some people, not all, opposed the treaty because
-They didn't bother reading up on it so thought they were better voting no
-Unfounded concerns about abortion
-Unfounded claims about conscription
-Unfounded claims about taxation

If the referendum was reheld with a better informed electorate, it would be democracy working well.
-

Its not undemocratic..its just unfair. The reason the No side got a look in at all is because of the arrogant assumption that we would all follow our trusted leaders...we all didn't coz they were/are not trusted.
Is a No vote an anti-EU vote? Is it an 'I want Ireland out of Europe' vote?. Coz thats what the yes side are saying.

The 'wrong reasons' is undeniably condescending...there is a trust-defecit in Europe and the leaders solution to it is to by-pass the need for trust. We in Ireland were very mindful of the weight of responsibility we had last time and in the intrest of democratic integrity voted no. We are not stupid. We, more than most other nations, debated and wrangled w the treaty's design and purpose. The reasons for the No vote were cynically simplified and disrespected.

That's it though. There's every possibility that our economy will be bankrupt in the next 12 months. We may need to be bailed out.

Are you telling me there is possible help out there for us in the EU that we've played a strong and proud roll in but its its only available if we vote yes? Not if we're salvagable....just if we vote yes???
What sort of 'Community' is the EU that blackmails its citizens into voting against their convictions?

The problem is that if Lisbon is as hugely important to the vitality of Europe as to warrant such threats against the Irish then surely it should be put to a European-wide vote.
If it can get you get you sanctioned it must be worth the approval of the citizens of europe too??



Watch this space for the new anti-Europa party MILKERTAS

 

[Anarcho Munk]

treaties are shite, thats whats the problem.

As some one said on Q&A's t'other night on RTE, no one would pick up the Lisbon treaty buke even if it came with a free cd in the Sunday fucking Mail.

Fuck MEP's and TD's, elitist aresholes.

 

[rettucs]

oh, the brits

Reporting on the outcome of last week’s EU summit in Brussels Mr Brown insisted in the House of Commons yesterday that the guarantees given to Ireland in negotiations with the EU would “clarify but not change” the treaty.

and

Mr Cameron, however, suggested the claim that the guarantees made no difference to the treaty would be received with “great interest” by the Irish people.

I wonder what Robbie Keane thinks about that.

 

[broken arm]

oh, the brits

bear in mind the tories are euro skeptic.....

the issue with the treaty is about the understanding of the text and how that text could be used not changing the words.

I'll try and explain how I interpret this...and someone can correct me on this

The European Union isn't of a particular political slant - (i.e. right or left) but it is a mirror of the political culture of the member states. E.g. If every member state voted in militant socialists the the EU would reflect that and visa versa if every country was a fascist dictatorship.

Documents like treaties provide frameworks that will have to accomodate the evoloving political context of each member state. If the treaty mandated a particular political context it would potentially create difficulties for the future.

That's why politicians talk about "understandings" "spirit of the text" etc etc.

 

[Froog]

pete, can we merge the poll in politics into this thread?

 

[Milker]

Yes voters please clarify:

A) If the treaty passes its driving test THIS time...

1: Will any other treaty-like document ever be put to the populations in the future? And if not is that a good thing?

2: Will Ireland be contributing more dosh to a central military shopping-basket fund? If so is that a good thing? Will our peacekeepers be unable to acquire decent equipment unless we do contribute?

B) If the treaty is rejected again what exactly happens in Europe? Is all future development impossible?

 

[platters]

The European Union isn't of a particular political slant - (i.e. right or left) but it is a mirror of the political culture of the member states

I don't think it's useful to view the treaty in terms of left and right either, but it is particularly slanted towards the centralisation of power within the EU

 

[broken arm]

I don't think it's useful to view the treaty in terms of left and right either, but it is particularly slanted towards the centralisation of power within the EU

 

[MDR]

I need to reread the material on Lisbon, as I've pretty much forgotten every opinion I had on it at the time. I do know that i voted yes, but it was the most lukewarm yes I had ever given to a European treaty referendum, largely because it has so little to offer in terms of substantive reform - many of the changes are procedural with opaque merit, if any.

My general perspective on Europe is that it has largely been responsible for the reform in this country on important matters of principle like employment law, competition, equality, minority rights and environmental protection. The EU has injected an amount of civilized law-making into what an often haphazard and non-commital Irish political system.

Furthermore, I think it's a huge embarrassment when an international humanitarian or political crisis emerges and the EU is nowhere to be seen. It's also a joke that the EU is not represented as a power in its own right at the G8, UN Security council etc. Instead we have the UK and French Govts representing a european perspective.

I don't fear laws made in the EU being implemented europe-wide, especially when in reality that law-making process (even if Lisbon were passed) would remain tortuous with endless rounds of consultation, recalibration, compromise etc. The idea that the EU is a single one-eyed giant who will issue constitution-busting edicts as soon as ink on Lisbon is dry is absurd for anyone with experience of how the EU actually works (or doesn't work).

 

[broken arm]

Furthermore, I think it's a huge embarrassment when an international humanitarian or political crisis emerges and the EU is nowhere to be seen. It's also a joke that the EU is not represented as a power in its own right at the G8, UN Security council etc. Instead we have the UK and French Govts representing a european perspective.

this was a big issue for me during the last referendum because, for example, the EU have been trying to have a proper presence in middle east but the fact the envoys were fragmented they were incapable of doing anything of value other than try and verbally counteract the shite coming from the whitehouse.. now should they be there in the first place is another question

I was also in Bosnia at the time of the last lisbon debate - travelling around while reading some books on the long-view history of the conflict etc. - what did happen and what could/should have happened - so there was lots lots of personal reflection (probably naive) on where the support of/integration with the EU could take the region in the future.