Converge in Dublin (1 Viewer)

[xConorx]

Why can't I be you?

 

[the strange guy]

You will be. One day. Just believe.

 

[xConorx]

I do oh I do.

 

[Corm]

Jesus christ, boss, you're clutching at straws here. Just give it up; everyone doesn't have to have the same opinion as you.

So basically you believed a bunch of stuff you read in MRR rather than basing your opinion on actually meeting the guys from the band? Nice one. As far as I know they turned out to be lovely fellas and very DIY.

Yes; if I HAD actually met the band and they turned out to be lovely fellas and very DIY, then maybe I'd have a different opinion. In fact I heard opinions from from more than one source that described them as having a shitty attitude, to which there was no response.

You're the one talking about transparency and so on, while simultaneously giving out about people being hypocritical. So what's the point of something like MRR then? To run nice little promo ads for labels? Do you think that absolutely no-one who knows the Apers would have read that letter and let them know about it? Then why didn't they reply and clear the water? Well? Excuse me for having an opinion based on all the information I've heard.

You are joking regarding the "bullshit promo, publicity, etc material, which has always left a bad taste in my mouth" right? You do realize that Converge will have shit loads of promo type stuff and their label Equalvision always does one-sheets, and in fact their first two full-lengths are being re-released with even more new artwork wow.

I don't recall defending Converge at any point in this thread? What's your point? Oh wait, now I'm just defending them because I like them.

Right 4 Life were looking for a big guarantee? What the fuck are you talking about? I put them on in Belfast (with no guarantee) and they got 85 quid and never complained about the money they got. I don't even like the band and I agree that the thanks to God in their liner notes is bullshit but lets stick to the fact here Cormy - they were not looking for a big guarantee. Also I don't ever remember getting a rider from them, if I did they certainly didn't get it - they got treated the same as everyone else, food and a place to stay - they were greatful. Then again they don't play cool music.

They asked for £200, 4 beds, various specific expensive foods and a whole load of other stuff, and didn't say that they'd be happy with less. Sorry, but you're wrong; they were looking for a full guarantee.

As regards having a rider - do Converge have one? I'll be surprised if they don't. Just heard their Manchester guarantee is £1100 (1700eur approx?) D.I.Y!.

Once again; who cares? Converge = popular = lots of people wanting to see them = somewhat justified in looking for things which their own popularity can ensure. Is it that complicated that you can't understand it?

It's pretty simple really; your beef is that people will defend bands they like and give out about bands they don't like, despite their behaviour. Just think about it for a minute.

If I like a band, its going to be because of their whole shtick. Music, politics, image, the way they conduct themselves, etc. So if I like a band, its because I've weighed up these things and they've made a positive impression on me. If I don't like a band its for the same reasons. The reason I like or dislike a band in the first place is because of the overall image I have of them based on my experiences -e.g., I bought the Right 4 Life CD, listened to it, read the lyrics, heard about what they were looking in terms of a guarantee, and came to have a certain opionion of them. What's so weird about that?

My opinion is that you've just got a chip on your shoulder because most of us aren't into the same music as you, and you're thus trying to discredit us and what we're into.

 

[W.]

It's pretty simple really; your beef is that people will defend bands they like and give out about bands they don't like, despite their behaviour. Just think about it for a minute.

Didn't feel like getting in on this thread but don't quite understand this point.

If I like a band, its going to be because of their whole shtick. Music, politics, image, the way they conduct themselves, etc. So if I like a band, its because I've weighed up these things and they've made a positive impression on me. If I don't like a band its for the same reasons. The reason I like or dislike a band in the first place is because of the overall image I have of them based on my experiences -e.g., I bought the Right 4 Life CD, listened to it, read the lyrics, heard about what they were looking in terms of a guarantee, and came to have a certain opionion of them. What's so weird about that?

Sometimes a band are so good though that it doesnt matter how un-diy they are or whatever, it would be silly to write off a band based purely on the people they are outside of their songs. Of course i would still always lean more towards bands who I share diy ethics and political beliefs with.

My opinion is that you've just got a chip on your shoulder because most of us aren't into the same music as you, and you're thus trying to discredit us and what we're into.

Most people on this board don't seem to be into the same music as each other, i think that's a fairly harsh comment.

 

[W.]

sorry corm, reading back through i had missed part of the discussion, understand your first quoted point.. nevermind.

 

[Problematic]

"Excuse me for having an opinion based on all the information I've heard"

In fairness two badly written letters in MRR is hardly the basis for a fair evaluation of anything.

 

[W.]

badly written? - that's subjective.

 

[Problematic]

yes

 

[xConorx]

Jesus christ, boss, you're clutching at straws here. Just give it up; everyone doesn't have to have the same opinion as you.

Of course they don't. It appears that a lot of people think that everyone should agree with them. I am not asking people to agree with me I am asking them to be halfway consistent in the slating of bands. And if you can't be consistent at least don't be unnecessarily scathing toward bands and promoters who you simply don't like.

Yes; if I HAD actually met the band and they turned out to be lovely fellas and very DIY, then maybe I'd have a different opinion. In fact I heard opinions from from more than one source that described them as having a shitty attitude, to which there was no response.

You're the one talking about transparency and so on, while simultaneously giving out about people being hypocritical. So what's the point of something like MRR then? To run nice little promo ads for labels? Do you think that absolutely no-one who knows the Apers would have read that letter and let them know about it? Then why didn't they reply and clear the water? Well? Excuse me for having an opinion based on all the information I've heard.

Why should the Apers defend themselves? A lot of people have better things to do than spend their time defending shite allegations when people who have met them and put them on know that they actually aren't the demons they were made out to be. I know that if people were on the internet talking shite about me all the time eventually just not give a fuck about responding.
You weren't just "having an opinion" - you were actually talking shit about a band that turned out to be decent. Not only that but your post was particularly scathing and a tad unneccesary. It basically amounted to a call for people to boycoot the band, which is a bit mean.

I don't recall defending Converge at any point in this thread? What's your point? Oh wait, now I'm just defending them because I like them.

I never said that you were defending Converge - the point is that you went out of your way talk shit about other bands occasions when you could just as easily nit-pick with Converge, but again, you like them.

They asked for £200, 4 beds, various specific expensive foods and a whole load of other stuff, and didn't say that they'd be happy with less. Sorry, but you're wrong; they were looking for a full guarantee.

Please stick to the facts. I don't think they played Dublin ( or did they? pretty sure they didn't). Did you see them or meet them? I put them on here, despite my own reservations (and Patrice assured me there was nowt to worry about, and he was right). They had no guarantee in Belfast, no rediculous rider request. They got food, 85 squid and a floor to sleep on. They said thanks and that they fancied coming back.
I actually don't like the bands musically, I thought their thanks list was dumb - I put them on because Patrice needed a hand and I trust his judgement. They were fine.

Once again; who cares? Converge = popular = lots of people wanting to see them = somewhat justified in looking for things which their own popularity can ensure. Is it that complicated that you can't understand it?

It's pretty simple really; your beef is that people will defend bands they like and give out about bands they don't like, despite their behaviour. Just think about it for a minute.

You obviously cared about a rider and guarantee when it was Right 4 Life - you felt so strongly you had to post on here.
I totally understand people being slightly biased towards bands they like - I have said that quite a few times. My problem is when people went out of their way to talk shit about them, not merely saying "I don't really like this band" but formulating reason why people should not support them. If I don't like a band I simply keep it to myself or maybe say "not my cuppa tea" or even "fuck I hate that band" - However I don't feel the need to go on the internet and talk shit about the band and promoters based on a personal bias.

If I like a band, its going to be because of their whole shtick. Music, politics, image, the way they conduct themselves, etc. So if I like a band, its because I've weighed up these things and they've made a positive impression on me. If I don't like a band its for the same reasons. The reason I like or dislike a band in the first place is because of the overall image I have of them based on my experiences -e.g., I bought the Right 4 Life CD, listened to it, read the lyrics, heard about what they were looking in terms of a guarantee, and came to have a certain opionion of them. What's so weird about that?

My opinion is that you've just got a chip on your shoulder because most of us aren't into the same music as you, and you're thus trying to discredit us and what we're into.

Haha, na mate. I faced the fact that no-one like the same music as me a long time ago and I reckon I can live with it. All the bands mentioned so far (The Apers, Converge, Right 4 Life) I actually think are shit musically however that doesn't give me a reason to talk shit them or their motives. If a band are wankers they are wankers, fair enough - I'll try and base that on meeting them though, not what I've read on the nerd or in a zine. Sure we all talk a bit of shite about bands, no one should be surprised at that, but launching into uninformed tirades about a band is completely unconstructive.

Seriously I am not trying "discredit" anyone at all - I have said repeatedly that I have no problem with bands that have reasonable guarantees. IO have no problem with Damo/GZ putting on this band and I wish them the best - I hope they cover their costs on this one totally.

The shoe is now on the other foot and a band that is cool is asking for a massive guarantee (as opposed to some shit pop-punk or beatdown band) and people are starting to realise that past opinions on guarantee/riders etc maybe aren't so valid.

Again, has anyone else watched the video clip? Just curious what people think about it and how they'd react if it were other bands.

Not having a go Cormy - just keeping this important discussion going.

 

[Corm]

"Excuse me for having an opinion based on all the information I've heard"

In fairness two badly written letters in MRR is hardly the basis for a fair evaluation of anything.

More of a basis for an evaluation than no letters. All anyone can do is make a judgement based on the evidence presented to them, no?

 

[xConorx]

"Excuse me for having an opinion based on all the information I've heard"

In fairness two badly written letters in MRR is hardly the basis for a fair evaluation of anything.

Finally a humourous post.

 

[Problematic]

the letters in MRR were written by a guy called Leen Steen who runs another Dutch record label http://www.tocado.com/news.asp . It was basically some jealous bullshit trying to slate Stardumb and the Apers because they were becoming better known than the label he runs.

 

[Damage Central]

I had read the letters in MRR before meeting/agreeing to put on The Apers but I didn't let it affect my judgment because I know how much bullshit gets spread about the punk scene. I prefer to base my judgments of people/bands on my first hand dealings with them - and, lo and behold, The Apers were totally fucking decent guys.

I asked them about the letters and Kevin Aper exasperatedly shrugged it off as the bitter rantings of some hometown exclusivists who are angry it's The Apers doing well and not them. His very words were something like, "No matter what I say they're gonna hate me, so why should I bother getting into an argument?" If people are gonna write off a band simply because of some crap they read in the letters page of a fanzine, then it's probably their problem more than it is the band's.

For the record, I've never heard Right 4 Life or Converge so have zero opinion on them musically, but I think The Apers are a good pop-punk band.

 

[Corm]

Why should the Apers defend themselves? A lot of people have better things to do than spend their time defending shite allegations when people who have met them and put them on know that they actually aren't the demons they were made out to be. I know that if people were on the internet talking shite about me all the time eventually just not give a fuck about responding. You weren't just "having an opinion" - you were actually talking shit about a band that turned out to be decent. Not only that but your post was particularly scathing and a tad unneccesary. It basically amounted to a call for people to boycoot the band, which is a bit mean.

If it was my band who the allegations were made about, I'd want to defend myself and would. There have often been similar things in MRR or other zines where a dialogue has been opened up and the issues cleared by the accused resonding and stating their side of it. That's all I know about it, and all I have to go on. People weren't talking shit all the time; there were certain accusations made, which were not responded to. I added this to what else I knew about the Apers. Yeah, I was talking shit -the same as I would about any band reported to have lampooned and denegrated the DIY scene while simulataneously using it as a stepping stone, no matter how much I liked or disliked them. There's been many times where I've been disapointed by reading an interview with a band I like musically, who turn out to be knobheads, and I'm forced to change my opinion of them.

I never said that you were defending Converge - the point is that you went out of your way talk shit about other bands occasions when you could just as easily nit-pick with Converge, but again, you like them.

Again, I merely gave my opinion about what I knew based on what I'd heard; nothing to do with how much I like a band. If I'd heard negative shit about Converge, I would have "nit-picked" about them. Now that I've heard things like what you've mentioned, I've got certain reservations about the band. Same as Dillinger Escape Plan; I went to see them liking them, I left thinking they (or their singer at least) were dickheads. Extreme Noise Terror for instance is a band I like a lot, but I've heard lots of shit about them, so now I've got a negative opinion of them. Another example is Cripple Bastards; I like them musically but I've heard a lot of shit about them and they've got a very dodgy reputation, so I wouldn't put them on. From Ashes Rise, who are one of my favourite bands have just signed to a label I don't have much regard for based on the expressly Christian views of other bands on their label, their advertising and marketing, etc, so I've written to FAR asking them about it in an interview; even though they're one of my favourite bands I still will question them about their activities and this has already muddied my view of them. I can't speak for anyone else, but it doesn't matter how much I like a band, its what I've heard about them. Likewise I've put on gigs for dozens of bands I have absolutely no regard for musically, but they needed or asked for a gig and were sound people, so I put them on. If I've heard about them what I heard about the like of Right 4 Life, Apers, etc, then I wouldn't have put them on or else asked them about it first.

Please stick to the facts. I don't think they played Dublin ( or did they? pretty sure they didn't). Did you see them or meet them? I put them on here, despite my own reservations (and Patrice assured me there was nowt to worry about, and he was right). They had no guarantee in Belfast, no rediculous rider request. They got food, 85 squid and a floor to sleep on. They said thanks and that they fancied coming back.
I actually don't like the bands musically, I thought their thanks list was dumb - I put them on because Patrice needed a hand and I trust his judgement. They were fine.

I am sticking to the facts; they asked to play in Dublin and were denied because of what they were looking for. Likewise Patrice doesn't have a bulletproof reputation -based solely on what I've heard and experienced, just the way that with me, Albert in Limerick has a good reputation, Daniel in Galway has a good reputation, and you and Cormac in Belfast have a good reputation.

You obviously cared about a rider and guarantee when it was Right 4 Life - you felt so strongly you had to post on here..

Yes, because, as I've explained, I felt that Converge, being popular and capable of drawing a crowd (and thus money) to pay for these things, were justified in looking for them. Right 4 Life, being unpopular and incapable of drawing a crowd (and thus money) to pay for these things, were not justified in looking for them. In the case of Right 4 Life, I thought it was a bit presumptous of them, especially when coupled with the Christan shit.

I totally understand people being slightly biased towards bands they like - I have said that quite a few times. My problem is when people went out of their way to talk shit about them, not merely saying "I don't really like this band" but formulating reason why people should not support them. If I don't like a band I simply keep it to myself or maybe say "not my cuppa tea" or even "fuck I hate that band" - However I don't feel the need to go on the internet and talk shit about the band and promoters based on a personal bias.

I didn't go out of my way, I merely stated what I'd heard. Why would I bother going out of my way to give out? You might also recall that I was giving out about HWM, who used to be one of my favourite bands, after I went to see them.

I don't see why you can't accept that the only reason I'll defend or attack a band is based on my overall experience and picture of them, not merely whether I like them.

If I choose to defend a band, that'll be because I've looked at the evidence and decided which side I believe. For the Bad Brains thing I took my information from the Dance of Days book and not just an Active Minds LP.

Wait a minute! But I like both the Bad Brains and Active Minds! Does Not Compute! Does Not Compute! Unable...to...make...decision...based...just...on...all...information..heard...gasp! BOOM!

The only reason I make a decision for or against something is because of all I've seen and heard on the matter.

The shoe is now on the other foot and a band that is cool is asking for a massive guarantee (as opposed to some shit pop-punk or beatdown band) and people are starting to realise that past opinions on guarantee/riders etc maybe aren't so valid.

Eh, well actually its a completely different pair of shoes and feet! Erm...

Its not to do with how cool someone is or what style of music they play; its about whether they're justified in asking for such guarantees and whether their popularity will ensure that they will make this money. I was offered to do gigs with bands before that I thought were cool, but I just had to turn them down cos their guarantee was too high and I wasn't confident that their popularity would ensure it was met -eg Small Brown Bike, Strike Anywhere, Capdown.

I still stand by my past opinions on guarantees/riders and their validity, and also on what I said about Right 4 Life and the Apers, and will do until my specific grievances with them have been addressed.

 

[brianMy Remorse]

just a little point i want to make regarding the behaviour of bands. true some people may be shocked and disgusted with the behaviour of converge in the video clip or by dillinger in dublin (possibly the limerick gig as well) and the icarus line in cork but i think you cant form an opinion based on these alone. im not excusing for one second the behaviour as some of it went above and beyond the acceptable, nor am i saying that this behaviour shouldnt taint your view of them, but i think anyone who knows what its like being in a band or has frequent dealings with people in bands recognises that such people may have 2 separate personalities, one off stage and one on stage. again im not condoning violent behaviour just sayin a lot of these guys are really decent when you talk to them, i interviewed dillinger in dublin and they were very courteous and humble (and to be fair i think it was the new singer who was over the top) just a point, i wouldnt go judging the other members of converge or any other bands based on one persons actions.

 

[xConorx]

If it was my band who the allegations were made about, I'd want to defend myself and would. There have often been similar things in MRR or other zines where a dialogue has been opened up and the issues cleared by the accused resonding and stating their side of it. That's all I know about it, and all I have to go on. People weren't talking shit all the time; there were certain accusations made, which were not responded to. I added this to what else I knew about the Apers. Yeah, I was talking shit -the same as I would about any band reported to have lampooned and denegrated the DIY scene while simulataneously using it as a stepping stone, no matter how much I liked or disliked them. There's been many times where I've been disapointed by reading an interview with a band I like musically, who turn out to be knobheads, and I'm forced to change my opinion of them.

If you choose to defend yourself that is your perogative. If another band or person decides they couldn't be arsed getting drragged into a pointless circular argument/slagging match, that should not be taken as an admission of wrong-doing or guilt ("ah look their silence says it all"). I mean eventually I will get sick and tired of this thread and stop posting long replies - it doesn't mean I care any less or I have been "beat", people just get tired of the same shit.
It doesn't really sound like they have "lampooned and denigrated the DIY scene" at all. Sounds like they were nice fellas and very DIY. By the sounds of it "the information you had" wasn't exactly objective or reliable.

Again, I merely gave my opinion about what I knew based on what I'd heard; nothing to do with how much I like a band. If I'd heard negative shit about Converge, I would have "nit-picked" about them. Now that I've heard things like what you've mentioned, I've got certain reservations about the band. Same as Dillinger Escape Plan; I went to see them liking them, I left thinking they (or their singer at least) were dickheads. Extreme Noise Terror for instance is a band I like a lot, but I've heard lots of shit about them, so now I've got a negative opinion of them. Another example is Cripple Bastards; I like them musically but I've heard a lot of shit about them and they've got a very dodgy reputation, so I wouldn't put them on. From Ashes Rise, who are one of my favourite bands have just signed to a label I don't have much regard for based on the expressly Christian views of other bands on their label, their advertising and marketing, etc, so I've written to FAR asking them about it in an interview; even though they're one of my favourite bands I still will question them about their activities and this has already muddied my view of them. I can't speak for anyone else, but it doesn't matter how much I like a band, its what I've heard about them. Likewise I've put on gigs for dozens of bands I have absolutely no regard for musically, but they needed or asked for a gig and were sound people, so I put them on. If I've heard about them what I heard about the like of Right 4 Life, Apers, etc, then I wouldn't have put them on or else asked them about it first.

Yes but did you feel the need to come on the net and post the same amount of stuff in a scathing manner that you with the Apers/Right4Life.
If you always base your opinions "on what you heard" surely you have to re-think your stance on both RFL and the Apers (fuck I can't belive I have talked about these bands so much I don't even like them!) as both Andrew and I have assured you that the Apers and Right 4 Life were not the wankers they were portrayed to be.
There is nothing silly about being proved wrong. I was wrong about AgnosticFront - by fuck I wanted to hate that band and was very apprehansive about them playing Giros but they were actually nice in person and fun to watch live *shudder*. I was wrong about Cappo - again, I had read fierce amount of shit on the nerd about him and Shelter, and while I still think using krshna as a vehicle was rediculous, the guy was fuckin sound in person and the band were entertaining and had a very reasonable guarantee in comparison to Converge at least. And Converge were never on Hotel Babylon were they? (does anyone get that one, ah ballicks). In both cases I was wrong and I can admit that.

I am sticking to the facts; they asked to play in Dublin and were denied because of what they were looking for. Likewise Patrice doesn't have a bulletproof reputation -based solely on what I've heard and experienced, just the way that with me, Albert in Limerick has a good reputation, Daniel in Galway has a good reputation, and you and Cormac in Belfast have a good reputation.

Ooohh I'll tell him you said that you are dead rarrr. na kidding. Again I will tell you the facts having actually put RFL on: no guarantee, no rediculous requests, 85quid, grateful and fancied coming back.
You know what it is like putting on gigs Cormy - not fair to sling mud at other regarding gigs.

I didn't go out of my way, I merely stated what I'd heard. Why would I bother going out of my way to give out? You might also recall that I was giving out about HWM, who used to be one of my favourite bands, after I went to see them.

You were giving out about HWM after you saw them live which ios fair enough - however, that's different from talking shit about a band based on what you read on the internet and in zines before actually giving the bands a chance.

I don't see why you can't accept that the only reason I'll defend or attack a band is based on my overall experience and picture of them, not merely whether I like them.

If I choose to defend a band, that'll be because I've looked at the evidence and decided which side I believe. For the Bad Brains thing I took my information from the Dance of Days book and not just an Active Minds LP.

Wait a minute! But I like both the Bad Brains and Active Minds! Does Not Compute! Does Not Compute! Unable...to...make...decision...based...just...on...all...information..heard...gasp! BOOM!

The only reason I make a decision for or against something is because of all I've seen and heard on the matter.

Well now you've heard that both The Apers and Right 4 Life in fact were not wankers in real life, which is actually what matters.

Eh, well actually its a completely different pair of shoes and feet! Erm...

Its not to do with how cool someone is or what style of music they play; its about whether they're justified in asking for such guarantees and whether their popularity will ensure that they will make this money. I was offered to do gigs with bands before that I thought were cool, but I just had to turn them down cos their guarantee was too high and I wasn't confident that their popularity would ensure it was met -eg Small Brown Bike, Strike Anywhere, Capdown.

I still stand by my past opinions on guarantees/riders and their validity, and also on what I said about Right 4 Life and the Apers, and will do until my specific grievances with them have been addressed.

The thing is neither the Apers or Right 4 Life were asking for the rediculous guarantees, and anything they did ask for they didn't get, and anything they got they were very grateful for.
As Bane said, "Fuck What You Heard"

 

[Cormcolash]

I suggest we settle this by having a joy-riding race from Belfast to Dublin in the dead of night. If everyone puts up £200 each as prize money, it'll be worth it.
I call the pink Volkswagen, any girls that want to come along are welcome.

 

[xConorx]

As much fun as an oul joyride race would be I don't we'd get any nearer to resolving this!

 

[the strange guy]

I'm looking forward to going to Barcelona, get outta this kip, yknow?