Police officer dies in Italian soccer riot (2 Viewers)

[pete]

such a childish, irrational, ignorant and clearly uneducated view of what an anarchist society would involve.

Enquring minds should first of all grow up then read a book.

As it keeps having to be said anarchism doesnt mean taking a step back in the technological advances of the world and have people "rationing lentils" and producing "iron lungs from recycled materials in a squat". Its another alternative system of social order mainly concerned with balancing the huge inequalities in wealth and power in the world. A system which has examples of working such as Chiapas and the Makhnovist movement in Ukraine, if you want to go by wikipedias list (which i actually wouldn't) but interestingly enough they have Celtic Ireland down as an example of an anarchist society...thats off point anyway just thought i'd share http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_anarchist_communities

I've missed a lot of whats been said in the last few pages but it seems to be going in circles anyway just thought i had to address that point.

The irony of starting a post suggesting people "read a book" before commenting and finishing it with an admission of not having bothered to read the last few pages is not lost on me.

edit: actually, that wikipedia page is comedy gold

In recent history there have been numerous instances of the collapse of state authority, sometimes prompted by war but also often due to implosion of the state. In some cases, state collapse is followed by lawlessness, rioting, looting and, if disarray lasts long enough, warlordism. Although such societies are often described as anarchy, they are not organized according to anarchist principles.

I guess that rules out using Somalia as an example of the beauty of a stateless society.

It is often difficult to find and research past anarchist or semi-anarchist societies, since, as Murray Rothbard points out, "The lack of recordkeeping in stateless societies — since only government officials seem to waste time, energy, and resources on such activities — produce a tendency toward a governmental bias in the working methods of historians."

Oh please.

 

[rape the drummer]

i doubt the last few pages of this thread are as worthwhile reading as books on political and social theory, considering reactionaries like you, jane, janer and malarky are the ones doing the majority of the posting.

 

[rape the drummer]

I guess that rules out using Somalia as an example of the beauty of a stateless society.

stateless does not equal anarchist. mind of a child....

 

[pete]

i doubt the last few pages of this thread are as worthwhile reading as books on political and social theory, considering reactionaries like you, jane, janer and malarky are the ones doing the majority of the posting.

all this and psychic too? awesome.

 

[pete]

stateless does not equal anarchist. mind of a child....

did i say it did?

 

[rape the drummer]

you implied it yes

 

[pete]

you implied it yes

try reading it this time.

 

[rape the drummer]

all this and psychic too? awesome.

not psychic, I have enough experience of you guys to know your all just having little petty squabbles- surely you don't place the discussions on your message board so highly in your esteem that they be compared to worthwhile academic works?

 

[rape the drummer]

try reading it this time.

you implied it yes

!zed

 

[Lili Marlene]

not psychic, I have enough experience of you guys to know your all just having little petty squabbles- surely you don't place the discussions on your message board so highly in your esteem that they be compared to worthwhile academic works?

I once wrote an essay about a thread on here, that one where some band wore swastika armbands at halloween and everyone freaked out.

I think I got a B in it.

 

[pete]

!zed

So i have to spell it out for you?

I never said (or implied) that Somalia was an anarchist society. Somalia is a 100% real world example of what happens when the State collapses. Call it human nature, call it darwinism in action, whatever, - but for every well meaning political philosopher, there's a dozen warlords in waiting.

 

[rape the drummer]

definitly basing my next college essay on a thumped thread.

with *Sanctioned by Pete, supported by JANER at the bottom.

 

[Buzzo]

i doubt the last few pages of this thread are as worthwhile reading as books on political and social theory, considering reactionaries like you, jane, janer and malarky are the ones doing the majority of the posting.

I love these threads. Reading theory is great but I find these discussions, bitchiness sarcasm and pointless slagging aside, give me a better idea of how my peers understand shit. (I still don't understand how people who are violent to one another would be dealt with in an anarchist society, answers aren't forthcoming here so I'll read a book).

Interesting thing I just learned this evening- the upper and middle classes in Ireland and Britain orignially objected to the formation of a formally structured police force.

 

[pete]

not psychic, I have enough experience of you guys to know your all just having little petty squabbles- surely you don't place the discussions on your message board so highly in your esteem that they be compared to worthwhile academic works?

And who said I did?

 

[rape the drummer]

So i have to spell it out for you?

I never said (or implied) that Somalia was an anarchist society. Somalia is a 100% real world example of what happens when the State collapses. Call it human nature, call it darwinism in action, whatever, - but for every well meaning political philosopher, there's a dozen warlords in waiting.

I've the mind of a child. I did just assume you were implying that stateless meant anarchist. Must apologise. Be civil and all that

 

[rape the drummer]

And who said I did?

no one said you did...i didn't, you didn't....unless janer was here.

 

[Lili Marlene]

I love these threads. Reading theory is great but I find these discussions, bitchiness sarcasm and pointless slagging aside, give me a better idea of how my peers understand shit. (I still don't understand how people who are violent to one another would be dealt with in an anarchist society, answers aren't forthcoming here so I'll read a book).

Interesting thing I just learned this evening- the upper and middle classes in Ireland and Britain orignially objected to the formation of a formally structured police force.

The Irish police force was one of the (if not THE) pioneers of a police force that would rule by moral authority rather than arms.
Something to do with an armed force reminding people of the black and tans.
You probably already know that but there you go.

 

[rape the drummer]

I love these threads. Reading theory is great but I find these discussions, bitchiness sarcasm and pointless slagging aside, give me a better idea of how my peers understand shit. (I still don't understand how people who are violent to one another would be dealt with in an anarchist society, answers aren't forthcoming here so I'll read a book).

Interesting thing I just learned this evening- the upper and middle classes in Ireland and Britain orignially objected to the formation of a formally structured police force.

ah yeah, these threads can be pretty epic. I'm not at all sure about how violence towards each other would be dealt with either. Probably a system based more around rehabilitation than locking up in prisons- just read a great piece for college entitled "Why Prisons Fail". In 1985 it was advised in the Whittaker report a 1,500 person ceiling be put on prsion numbers, now theres close to 5,000 in them. The Prisoner Class have created their own society outside of the majority society of the country, one in which they practice their own social norms and where going to prison is almost like a rite of passage to manhood. I won't bore you with any more details, very interesting though and a good indicator that the current legal system is a failure.

As well, you would hope in an anarchist society with wealth and power distributed more evenly which is its chief goal there would be reduced crime which has certainly been the case in previous examples of anarchist socieites.

 

[pete]

I still don't understand how people who are violent to one another would be dealt with in an anarchist society, answers aren't forthcoming here so I'll read a book.

I went here looking for an answer:

http://www.infoshop.org/wiki/index.php/Anarchist_FAQ_on_Crime,_the_Police_and_Prisons

edit: ok, found the one on GeoCities mentioned earlier in the thread:

Few anarchists think that private prisons (like private policemen) are compatible with their notions of freedom. However, all anarchists are against the current "justice" system which seems to them to be organised around revenge and punishing effects and not fixing causes.

However, there are psychopaths and other people in any society who are too dangerous to be allowed to walk freely. Restraint in this case would be the only option and such people may have to be isolated from others for their own, and others, safety. Perhaps mental hospitals would be used, or an area quarantined for their use created (perhaps an island, for example). However, such cases (we hope) would be rare.

So instead of prisons and a legal code based on the concept of punishment and revenge, anarchists support the use of pubic opinion and pressure to stop anti-social acts and the need to therapeutically rehabilitate those who commit anti-social acts.

uhhh....

 

[Buzzo]

ah yeah, these threads can be pretty epic. I'm not at all sure about how violence towards each other would be dealt with either. Probably a system based more around rehabilitation than locking up in prisons- just read a great piece for college entitled "Why Prisons Fail". In 1985 it was advised in the Whittaker report a 1,500 person ceiling be put on prsion numbers, now theres close to 5,000 in them. The Prisoner Class have created their own society outside of the majority society of the country, one in which they practice their own social norms and where going to prison is almost like a rite of passage to manhood. I won't bore you with any more details, very interesting though and a good indicator that the current legal system is a failure.

Whatever you're stuyding sounds deadly. I've read parts of the Whittaker report alright. It's amazingly interesting stuff but it was pretty much ignored by the department of justice as a springboard for policy change. Another interesting document from even earlier, a report by the O Brien Committee in 1979, recommended that audiovisual equipment be used in all police interviews and interrogations to prevent intimidation or violence. 27 years later......

As well, you would hope in an anarchist society with wealth and power distributed more evenly which is its chief goal there would be reduced crime which has certainly been the case in previous examples of anarchist socieites.

If an anarchist society managed to thrive, and gender and economic inequality were wiped out (how is this not utopian??), that still doesn't deal with the fact that more than likely, there will be people who still act the fuck to each other, there will still be vulnerable people and people would still committ acts that are just plain bad. Who decides who needs rehabilitation? What if they don't want to be rehabilitated? What if they just won't stop hurting someone else in the community?

edit- Pete's response..... I still don't get it. Forcing someone into an institution is forcing someone into an institution. An area quarantined for their use???????? Like a jaysis leporacy colony for the insane? How humanitarian. Good lord.