Will fans give something back? (3 Viewers)

[snakybus]

I think it's a great idea too.

 

[Anthony]

i've set this up and bunged it on our myspace page. sure what harm.
the only problem with this is that to donate money you also have to be a member of karmafan and you need to have money in your karmafan account.

so the time between you depositing money in your karmafan account and you dishing out the karma your money is "resting" in someone else's account.
Perhaps that's where karmafan intend making some cash, interesting.

 

[egg_]

I think it's a good idea, especially the badges and tracking of donations. The proof of the pudding will be in the eating, of course. Also you'll need to move beyond paypal pretty quick, it's a damn awkward interface to use ... google checkout is still only available to US and UK merchants though isn't it?

 

[Goodbye]

That money was just resting in my account!

 

[east hastings]

on the subject of giving money back, if there's any fans of The Locust:
http://www.drownedinsound.com/articles/2645729

 

[Karmafan]

It's great to get more feedback on Karmafan. We're improving things as we go - comments on how things could be better are always welcome. The widget is getting a facelift and the site will look a bit different in a few weeks.

We don't make anything from the money sitting in the Karmafan PayPal account, nor from the money collected from payments made by text. The principle really is that we'll try and exist in the same spirit as artists can. If you get some money from your fans you can choose to give us some.

The badges and tracking are also being improved, and a fan doesn't have to join Karmafan to give a voluntary payment. One-time payments using PayPal or SMS are possible (just text a short phrase to a number from most places around the world) although the fan remains anonymous.

The top-up idea works well if a fan wants to give a small amount a few times, as there's no transaction fee once the money is in the Karmafan system. So then it's possible to give someone amounts like 20 cents several times, or distribute a couple of euro among a few bands. Maybe each time a new song is released online, or after a good free gig. Or maybe if just if you find yourself listening to a certain track a lot.

Again, any comments are welcome. Sign up and try it out then let us know what you think either here on through the feedback form.

Thanks,
Dave

 

[Goodbye]

Howya Karmadave,

So your only source of income is if someone chooses to make a donation or not?
Kind of leaving a lot to chance.
So if the site goes tit's up after a few months and all acounts are closed what then? Tidy profit?
Just playing devils advocate with you.

Ultimately I think its a cool idea and wish you great success.
Are you based in Ireland?

Ino

 

[Karmafan]

Hi Ian,

The principle is that we can't really ask artists to pay us a set amount while expecting them to give away their work. If fans give money to a band and they make money that way, hopefully they'll see that it's good for everyone if Karmafan continues to exist. Do you think it would be better if we charged a subscription, or a percentage of each transaction? It would be good to know whether we made the right choice by deciding to rely on voluntary payments ourselves.

We're based in Dublin. Karmafan Ltd is an Irish company but the system isn't confined to Ireland - SMS payments and of course PayPal or credit cards can be made from anywhere. And anyone can sign up. The only restriction is that an artist has to have some sort of website (MySpace, reverbnation, showcaseyourmusic, etc.) which they can use for the widget or to let fans know they can receive support through Karmafan.

We've been working on Karmafan since about May 2006 so we're not going anywhere soon

It just made sense to us that there should be an easy way to allow fans to support their favourite artists. We're not quite there yet but hopefully the changes we'll make over the next few weeks will help.

One of the main things is that it's best for musicians to really embrace it. Maybe not give away everything they've done, but release a single and ask for support, rather than selling their music and also asking for voluntary payments. The music almost distributes itself these days - as you can see from tracks appearing on all those iPods... So it might be best to just get it out there and let people give something back if they like it.

Let me know if any of you think we should change something or add any features.

All the best,
Dave

 

[Anthony]

er, the widget is too big.

 

[egg_]

Re: will fans give something back?

You probably heard our tune Periscope Down on Phantom lately, they played hell out of it, fair play to them - it was in their airplay top 10 for weeks, and number 1 for a week. Play on Phantom is fairly request-driven, AFAIK - they'll try something out, and if it gets a good response they'll play it more. So presumably there's a good few people out there who like the song.

Here's the stats on what it did to our sales over the period it was being played a lot:

Download single sales - zero
Album sales through our website - zero
Album sales from Road - one
Live show attendances - we have our first headline gig in ages in the BBR on Dec 8th ... we shall see

 

[Franco]

Live show attendances - we have our first headline gig in ages in the BBR on Dec 8th ... we shall see

 

[Scientician 0.8]

People are stingy cunts, myself included, part stinginess, part laziness. It's a bit depressing but most of my music purchases come from xtravision cos it's on my walk home from work. I'm also subscribed to emusic.com, I'm rarely in town when shops are open, but do buy records at gigs. This year I've bought more Irish records than any previous year, a majority of my purchases. If someone can download your tunes for free they will, most have no qualms about it. It can justified on any scale like this:

1) Small, indie bands need publicity/exposure, downloading their songs for free gives them "exposure".

2) Big, corporate bands are rich enough already so don't need my money. Anyway major labels are easy so it's okay to steal from them.


Still, it's an interesting idea the auld karmafan and I hope it works out for some of the bands. I heard of guys like Kieran Goss and the like recording their album after accepting donations from fans at gigs. I suppose if you have a hardcore of fans it'll work but in that case they'll buy your cd anyway.

 

[theoootini]

still think this is doomed to failure.

 

[Denny Oubidoux]

still think this is doomed to failure.

i think its the future! maybe not this particular site but some variation of it. you can already get whatever music you want online when you want it without paying for it and presumably this will continue to be the case, but at least if you like someting enough to support it you can do it this way. better than nothing, like. and they're our own lads and all! i'd rather donate directly to bands i like than have to pay some annual subscription fee (on top of broadband charges) to the likes of irma or whoever who will just distribute the money between u2 and david gray or whoever and claim that it is fair compensation to all bands who are loosing out due to file sharing.

 

[Anthony]

i think it's early days for this system. It will need some big name adopters and serious media coverage. It needs to become as big a name as myspace itself to work well. And I suppose the first step to that is for people to jump onboard.

 

[maims bond]

The proof of the pudding will be in the eating, of course.

That old adage is no longer true. The proof of the pudding is now in the eating, shitting out, and subsequent eating by 2 girls from 1 cup.

 

[das funkinstein]

i like the idea but you got to take a dragons den type approach to this.

if you don't take some kind of cut, all the expenses and effort of setting this up and running it are done for free or out of your own pocket.

at the very minimum i am guessing your going to need:
web hosting, multiple payment system, solid account and payout system.
i would imagine also that there is some kind of tax liability for handling incoming payments and i think there might be charges to move the payments once you got them.

all i am saying is have some kind of flat charge or % of donations or your in a world of pain.

 

[SONYMEGADRIVE]

i like the idea but you got to take a dragons den type approach to this.

if you don't take some kind of cut, all the expenses and effort of setting this up and running it are done for free or out of your own pocket.

in fairness, not pissing away your hard earned cash
on airy fairy ideas existed long before dragons den

 

[desertedvillage]

Would it be an idea to include a html document with a links to karmafan in downloadable folders containing your album? That way someone could get your album on soulseek and perhaps feel moved to donate?
Does anyone else have their own music for sharing in their soulseek folders?

 

[Karmafan]

Bundling a text or html file with music that you make available through whatever distribution channels you prefer is definitely a good way to make people think about the source of the music. Same with just putting your Karmafan profile URL on flyers for gigs, or even the short code and number for mobile payments. If people see that there are ways they can support music they like even with a small amount I really believe they will do it. Especially if those bands are giving them the music for nothing straight from the beginning.

We have things like hosting, accounting and even the legal side of it sorted out. And the system behind it is robust and tested exhaustively. The presentation of the site and widget is something we're working on, but we're keeping small so that we don't have to make the choice to charge artists a set fee or a percentage. It just makes no sense to tell a band that they need to give their hard work away but pay us a set amount. If someone has a good month I think they'll be willing to throw Karmafan a few cents.

I don't think people really are that stingy when they think about it. Or at least enough people sincerely care about things they like to want to see the artist get something back. And even if the way things work now means that there's no reason to give voluntarily, that may have to change. With more and more works being distributed by file-sharing or even just physical file-swapping with no connection to the creator, maybe we need to change our attitudes towards support. If you really try to have a dialogue with your fans you might find that they want to help, especially if you tell them that you want them to have your music, that you want them to share it, that you just want it to be heard.

Karmafan has gone through a lot of different stages of development since the first idea back in early 2006, and I'm sure we'll continue to change it. But it seemed then, and now, like something that could help make a connection between artists and fans that didn't depend on trading an object for cash. The subscription fee idea that seems very tempting to a lot of well-meaning and experienced experts like Rick Rubin sounds great but the flaws are obvious: $19.95 per month (or even per year) is a lot of money to some people so there's still the incentive to get the music for free, while the real concern would be just who would get to ride that gravy train? Would new artists be able to sign up for a cut, or would some organisation formed of experts (from the music industry) get to decide who is really a musician?

This post is getting really long so I better stop. I could go on for ever because I really believe that Karmafan or something like it - we're open to any suggestions for changes - can help bring some balance back to the relationship between artists and fans. It's not so hard to reach listeners these days, but it is hard to keep their attention. Making sure they can hear your music as easily as possible and in whatever way they like is one way to help them become fans. And someone who really likes your music is someone who might well come to a gig and bring a few friends, or even check out your MySpace page or blog and decide to send you the price of a pint (well, maybe a coffee or a Twix - but multiply it a few thousand times and you can have a fair few pints).