Who uses the internet? (2 Viewers)

[classic seanc]

I think the working class dollar is a gooood dollar. It's marketing. It's not used for market research mind, just for marketing. People use to align themselves to a certain group. There's very few middle class bands, and any band that comes across in that middle class kinda way gets slated because of it. People say "Radiohead? fuckin posh boys". Fuck that, they're a good band. U2 would say "We're from Finglas, seriously we are! we're working class!!" Nobody believes them, but they use to say "we came up from the gutter blah blah blah"

If the class things are dynamic, then how can they be used for research? And is defining someone based on your perceived notions of a dynamic thing such as class, not as prejudiced as basing it on their skin colour or gender or sexual preference?

 

[Janer]

I find most alternative bands in Dublin are middle class.

 

[nofunchee]

I think the working class dollar is a gooood dollar. It's marketing. It's not used for market research mind, just for marketing. People use to align themselves to a certain group. There's very few middle class bands, and any band that comes across in that middle class kinda way gets slated because of it. People say "Radiohead? fuckin posh boys". Fuck that, they're a good band. U2 would say "We're from Finglas, seriously we are! we're working class!!" Nobody believes them, but they use to say "we came up from the gutter blah blah blah"

i reckon there's a certain amount of credibility to being working class when you're famous. it's a denial of being out of touch with reality because you're famous.

If the class things are dynamic, then how can they be used for research?

what i meant was that concepts are open to interpretation, elaboration, and adaption. the reason for this is that people have different theories about how things work. theories about class have to change because society changes. many academics say there is no class structure. most academics are middle-class.

And is defining someone based on your perceived notions of a dynamic thing such as class, not as prejudiced as basing it on their skin colour or gender or sexual preference?

not exactly sure what you mean here. i'm under no illusion that i'm objective and unbiased. but at the same time i'm not suggesting that your class determines who you are or what you do. what i'm talking about is a class structure where some people's lifestyles, opinions, types of education, etc. are privilaged above others. i'm saying that this reflects unfair playing fields where some people have more resourses (not just economic) than others at their disposal. i'm talking about some people getting marginalised in education, for example, 'cos they haven't got the right accent, don't come from the right area, don't have access to the same financial resourses, don't have what are considered to be the right parents.

the issue of class is only deterministic a la racism, homophobia, sexism, etc. if you think all factory workers are stupid, all people from ballymun are scummers and criminals, all working-class women are sluts, etc. i dont think class determines who or what you are. in my opinion people don't get the same chances because a class structure exists that catagorises people as good/bad, respectable/not respectable, educated/stupid, and so on.

i hope this is clearer than my last post.

 

[Janer]

i reckon there's a certain amount of credibility to being working class when you're famous. it's a denial of being out of touch with reality because you're famous.

Totally 100%

 

[classic seanc]

Totally 100%

Aye, but the U2 example was never true in the first place. And it's used all the time.

 

[Janer]

Look I lived up the road in Ballymun and I even watched 'em in the Dandelion/McGonagles, there is more chance of me being middle class then them being working class, only reason I watched em and otehr shitty new wave cos there was no Punk bands playing, not in daytime gigs anyway ( I was only 14 etc)

U2 are not from Finglas but that Glasnevin/Willows Area which as we called in Ballymun at the time "The Poshies"

 

[Antrophe]

Dunchee's spot on with what he's saying about how an identity can be constructed around the term "working class" in order to destroy the very processes creating it in the first place.

That's seriously dubious about Ireland not having an industrial revolution, and really is an idea in the full flight of a crude, reductionist Marxism that the working class emerged sometime in and around the same period as the steam engine. Ireland may have remained tied to an agricultural economy untill very recently, but the North for instance was hugely industrialised as was Dublin and most urban areas had their industries. Anyway, I don't fully comprehend why somebody would want to argue away the existence of class in the face of institutions created by a class defining itself such as trade unions and guilds, which originated in Ireland just as they did in countries that had a deeper industrial revolution. Anyway, what is termed the industrial age, dependent on steam power etc is one specific era of production and tells us little about the existence of class tensions within a society where production has shifted to services/information technology.

 

[classic seanc]

My Economic History lessons might come in useful here...

There was never much coal in Ireland, though some was being mined in places like Castlecomer and transported via barge to Dublin. Without coal and iron mines, Ireland's industrial development was quite heavily kerbed.

Ireland didn't have an industrial revolution in the way that the UK did. The first factories, producing linen, arrived with the Hugenot's around the middle to end of the 18th century. And there were linen factories in the north. But, when cotton became cheaper than flax that affected the linen industry pretty badly.
Linen magnates then moved into finance, and that was the start of the banking system we have today.

Up North they had Haarland and Wolfe, and so developed in much the same way as Manchester or Newcastle. It's just a northern industrial town, as the song says.

Dublin wasn't "heavily industrialised" in the way that British cities were. It was the centre for trade, commerce, administration, all the landlords had gaffs up there, which required maids etc. Factory work wasn't really the main stay of employment in the same way it was in British cities.

As for the rest of your post, I'm not quite sure what to make of it. I'm being a cautious cat on this discussion

 

[nlgbbbblth]

the issue of class is only deterministic a la racism, homophobia, sexism, etc. if you think all factory workers are stupid, all people from ballymun are scummers and criminals, all working-class women are sluts, etc.

...anyone who wears a suit is a prick....all rugger buggers are wankers...anyone from Dalkey is a snob etc.

 

[nlgbbbblth]

My Economic History lessons might come in useful here...

Economic History had a high failure rate when I was in school.

Why?

 

[nlgbbbblth]

I find most alternative bands in Dublin are middle class.

Yes.

 

[classic seanc]

Economic History had a high failure rate when I was in school.

Why?

Was that a clever way of saying my facts are wrong? Or are you just asking me? I'm feeling a little paranoid today.

I don't know why the rates would've been high. I only did it when I repeated. I got a C1, based purely on the fact that I can't write fast enough, even using brief concise answers, at the time I knew the shit inside and out.

Anyway, it's usually only a repeat subject. And the exam paper was something like "There are 22 questions, do 5", so you only had to cover a tiny bit of the course to do well. Did you do it?

 

[nlgbbbblth]

Did you do it?

No. I did Economics and History though.
My cousins did Economic History and they both failed. It was the mid 1980s.

Those subject results breakdown they used print in the newspapers always showed a disproportionately high failure rate (both levels) for it. Around 12% - 18%.

 

[egg_]

Class is more of a cultural thing than a money thing, and there are way more than 2 classes.

 

[ICUH8N]

 

[Antrophe]

And is culture not mediated by money?

 

[Buzzo]

Is`somebody saying that people from disadvantaged backgrounds (roughly defined as people from particular communities that have higher unemployments levels, high level of early school leavers, low-education attainment, poor public amenities or access to them, and less chance of enjoying a quality of life than the rest of the nation) are equally likely to use the internet as 'middle class' people?

That's just kerayzzzeeee.

class is a very relevant concept. What dunchee said.

 

[egg_]

And is culture not mediated by money?

I don't know what you mean by "mediated by".

 

[billygannon]

If someone doesn't work, surely they are in the not-working class?

 

[nEiLo]

working class is the PC term for lower class.