How present are female musicians in the line-up at the Camden Crawl 2013? (1 Viewer)

[rettucs]

(lol wat? it's an infographic)

please check the thread title. You specifically refer to Camden Crawl. I think my comment was both accurate and fair.

Your arrogance is quite staggering.

 

[Jill Hives]

I'm not going to comment on everything written here, because it's not my responsibility to educate you all.

I'd say if you were looking for a discussion that's not the way to go about it.

 

[Theseus Mock]

THE CAMDEN BRAWL!

GirlsRockCamp: What started the gender investigation? Did girl bands come to you complaining or are you pushing some sort of self-construed agenda?

 

[washingcattle]

you responded to my musings about gender in different genres with "don't give me that "no one supports women in music"" when my whole point was that there are plenty of women in most genres of music. you ignored what i had actually said to give out about something i never said.

Your musings which included the line

could this be the evidence that the more 'alternative' types of musos are a bunch of sexist pricks?

Those musings ?

I said no one supports women. The point I'm making is that no one male or female will ever gets support from anyone ever. You are simply on your own.

There are less women in alternative music, fine. But you're saying that's down to sexism. I don't see any evidence whatsoever to support that theory. Be specific how does sexism stop women forming bands ?

 

[Cormcolash]

I think it's a disgrace that women aren't being properly represented in a festival which takes its name from the idea that the only way Irish people can socialize with each other is to get fucking wrecked in loads of different bars

 

[Mormon Nailer]

@Mormen Nailor

Tokenism tends to be less than 15%. Are you even aware of the concept of tokenism??? Honestly, you should take some time to read about it. Or you know, just stop talking. Please don't use transphobic language such as "hermaphrodites". If you don't know why this is transphobic, just google the term and "transphobic".



@ everyone else

Do you agree with Mormen Nailor? Because, if you don't, it looks like you do from here.

I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to say here about tokenism, and I suspect you don't either. Are you saying that the current female bands on the line-up are tokens, because that is probably more offensive to them than anything I have to say? And personally I think your suggestion of adding an arbitrary quota is the very definition of tokenism.

But aside from all that...

Being in a band is something that people do freely - the group is self selecting. There is nothing stopping anyone of any gender being an a band. It's a different issue to a question like promotion in the workplace where other peoples prejudices come into play. What exactly is the issue, that there are not enough women in music in general. If that's the argument then so what? It is a matter of choice not forced exclusion. I'm 100% positive that no guitar store anywhere, ever, has refused to sell someone an instrument because of their gender.

Is the issue that there are hundreds of female bands out there that are being deliberately excluded from festivals? I'd be prepared to listen to an argument on this... but I doubt the facts support you. In fact I'd say a good case could be made that the exact opposite is true.

 

[Kermit McDermott]

Have to agree with Mormon, there's no big conspiracy.

 

[GirlsRockCampIE]

I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to say here about tokenism, and I suspect you don't either. Are you saying that the current female bands on the line-up are tokens, because that is probably more offensive to them than anything I have to say? And personally I think your suggestion of adding an arbitrary quota is the very definition of tokenism.

Okay let me try one last time. I've actually spent some time writing this out and trying to make it really clear so here goes:

Tokenism is defined as less than 15%. Under this number the token member of a discriminated group is forced to always be representing their group. So when you claim that increasing the number to 30% is tokenism, that just doesn't make sense. Because the point of the 30% number is that is commonly accepted (amongst people who research issues such as structural discrimination, etc) as the number above which critical mass can be achieved. Putting in one female musician amongst 9 male ones and claiming to have achieved a feminist space - that is tokenism. Realising the achievement of 30% of female musicians playing at a festival is not tokenism, but the direct opposite. It is the point at which critical mass starts happening.

I said nothing about the current female musicians on the line-up fulfilling a tokenistic role, don't put your words and your ideas into my mouth.

I also never said ANYTHING about there being a big conspiracy. I am really surprised that some facts and a suggestion of how to improve things has been met with this defensiveness.

also, if you are not a woman who has played in a band or has wanted to play in a band, and you think that it is equally easy for everyone to do so, here's one good read: http://dickparty.tumblr.com/
Also a fun read for girls and women who play in bands!

 

[GO]

Music is dominated by people who are good at music and good at music business.And rightly so.

Gender has fuck all to do with it.

Stop whining and be the change you want to see.

If you have what it takes, that is.

Many don't.No shame in that.

 

[washingcattle]

Okay let me try one last time. I've actually spent some time writing this out and trying to make it really clear so here goes:

Tokenism is defined as less than 15%. Under this number the token member of a discriminated group is forced to always be representing their group. So when you claim that increasing the number to 30% is tokenism, that just doesn't make sense. Because the point of the 30% number is that is commonly accepted (amongst people who research issues such as structural discrimination, etc) as the number above which critical mass can be achieved. Putting in one female musician amongst 9 male ones and claiming to have achieved a feminist space - that is tokenism. Realising the achievement of 30% of female musicians playing at a festival is not tokenism, but the direct opposite. It is the point at which critical mass starts happening.

I said nothing about the current female musicians on the line-up fulfilling a tokenistic role, don't put your words and your ideas into my mouth.

I also never said ANYTHING about there being a big conspiracy. I am really surprised that some facts and a suggestion of how to improve things has been met with this defensiveness.

also, if you are not a woman who has played in a band or has wanted to play in a band, and you think that it is equally easy for everyone to do so, here's one good read: http://dickparty.tumblr.com/
Also a fun read for girls and women who play in bands!

You didn't say there was a conspiracy but Nooly did say

could this be the evidence that the more 'alternative' types of musos are a bunch of sexist pricks?

And I think the repsonses where to that rather than the initial posts

Firstly why should a festival be a feminist space ? Like I said this festival is not democratic it's not even a decent representation Irish musical culture to begin with.

Secondly if you do a survey in Ireland you'll more than likely find that the level of female band membership is far lower than 30% I'd imagine far lower than 19% so why should they be expected to falsely represent this by being expected to have 30% female performers ?

These figures strike me as pure rhetoric rather than having any basis in reality or there having been any study put into the reality of the Irish music scene.

http://dickparty.tumblr.com/

While this site may be very cathartic it doesn't seem to really give any insight into gender bias. It seems to be the a collection of "industry types" and sound men, promoters and drunken hecklers behaving poorly. This again is simply irrelevant as I (and most male musicians) could easily fill an entire blog with transcripts of arguments i've had with exactly the same people (except industry types, they wouldn't touch us with a fifty foot pole) and It still doesn't explain the lower number of female artists involved in the Irish DIY scene especially since most of the testimony seems to come from the United States.

Are there sexists in the Irish music scene , yes of course there are, there are also racists, homophobes and xenophobes they exist in any scene. But I see now evidence to support the theory that there are less women in bands because of this.

This site doesn't really prove anything except the further common stereotyping of Sound engineers, promoters and music shop workers as arrogant and ignorant.

To this end I offer this anecdotal evidence

I was turfed out of a very prominent Dublin music shop when i was 15 because i was wearing tracky bottoms and a football jersey, if that site and it's anecdotes can be used of evidence of gender bias then surely I could equally make the assertion that I was discriminated against on the basis of a class bias. And of course that would be equally ridiculous

I think before you make demands for inclusion of any group you really should do a survey to see what percentage of the overall demographic is being failed by their representation in this type of event. It's all well and good printing an unqualified figure for the purposes of publicity (and this whole thread strikes me as a publicity stunt rather than any attempt to engage in a meaningful discussion) but you have to expect that those figures will be scrutinised. You seem to think that we're being defensive when in fact we are simply questioning the validity off your research.

 

[ernesto]

....here's one good read: http://dickparty.tumblr.com/

stories of men being sexist assholes. could be any profession or passtime, not just music.

what is your fucking point?

yes there are still sexist people out there. coming on here trying to change that by trying to stir shite by provoking people who aren't sexist is foolish and pointless.
things have changed. more women play music than ever. and they will continue to do s. i hope. and maybe even one day, more than men, even in niche / genre-specific music.
and again, who will give a fuck?
you think men will be all 'i cant believe they dont let more men play in the festival'.
no, they probably wont unless they incredibly insecure or shit.

gender has nothing to do with the music scene or being in bands. nothing.
maybe youre completely missing the points made here of there are crossed wires, butyou dont seem to have a fucking clue.
get a fucking grip love

 

[Deleted member 3435]

I'm afraid to say that dick party blog reflects shit experiences of gigging /engineers etc that both men and women experience. Engineers can be dicks, but of course they're not all dicks etc and maybe anyone who had to do what they do would pick up similar bug bears and gripes. The point is that I don't know any male musicians who don't complain about similar things. While I have a lot of time for some of what you're saying, that always annoys me.

 

[washingcattle]

There is so much meh in this thread I don't know where to begin.

 

[rettucs]

GirlsRockCamp: What started the gender investigation? Did girl bands come to you complaining or are you pushing some sort of self-construed agenda?

I too would like to know this.

Also, why no comment on the gender breakdown among the organisers, curators, etc? Or were you afraid you'd find something that didn't suit your petty little argument?

 

[hugh]

So, basically to sum up, there's no problem here, nothing to worry about ... let's all just move on, and she can just go and "get a grip", yeah?

I don't really have the energy or inclination to take on an argument with about 10 different people but let me just say this. Suppose you are all correct and there are absolutely no barriers to women participating fully in the music scene. It's an absolutely level playing field. Gender is irrelevant. There is no negative bias towards female musicians. There are no structural, cultural or societal factors that influence whether or not girls form bands and whether or not they manage to do this successfully enough to get invited to play at events such as the Camden Crawl. They can do all this just as easily (or with the same level of difficulty) as boys.

If all this is the case, then why then do so few of them (relatively speaking) actually do it?
It seems to me that there are only two possible answers. One is that they are simply not good at it, and the other is that they are not interested in it. Most people here seem to, either explicitly or implicitly, be saying the latter. I suppose this is something of a relief as its way better than the girls-are-crap argument, but I still think it's bullshit for the following reason.

Someone at the very beginning asked something like "how many blacks are playing at it?". Ha ha. The obvious answer to this is "not very many .. possible none .. I don't know exactly". But, the related question is "how many blacks are attending it?". I imagine the answer to that is also "not very many .. possibly none .. I don't know exactly". It might be reasonable to conclude from this that they are not that interested. Anyone whose gig in the Workmans or something over the weekend was completely overrun with Nigerians can contradict me on this if I am wrong.

However, there are plenty of women at all these gigs (right?) so clearly they are interested. Is it really credible that they want to be in the audience but not on the stage? Is it really credible that you can have fairly equal levels of participation in other fields of cultural production such as theatre and visual art but not here? And that there is no possibility of any kind of underlying structural reason (or set of reasons) for this situation? Really? I just don't buy that.

 

[Denny Oubidoux]

What kinda things might be stopping women joining or starting bands? Specifically, I mean. I can't see what it might be myself, unless maybe guys just don't want them in their bands - I'm sure this is true in lots of cases* but I can't see it accounting for the overall numbers.

*edit: maybe not lots, but I'm sure examples could be found

 

[dudley]

I have no idea where to weigh in on this, but are more men involved in bands because more men are socially pathetic and need some sort of crutch (band/5 a side) as an excuse to hang out with other humans. Useless bastards.

 

[ernesto]

I have no idea where to weigh in on this, but are more men involved in bands because more men are socially pathetic and need some sort of crutch (band/5 a side) as an excuse to hang out with other humans. Useless bastards.

this might actually be the answer

or...
is it anything to do with the fact we cant give birth to children?!

no, its not.
im talking out my hole.

 

[washingcattle]

So, basically to sum up, there's no problem here, nothing to worry about ... let's all just move on, and she can just go and "get a grip", yeah?

I don't really have the energy or inclination to take on an argument with about 10 different people but let me just say this. Suppose you are all correct and there are absolutely no barriers to women participating fully in the music scene. It's an absolutely level playing field. Gender is irrelevant. There is no negative bias towards female musicians. There are no structural, cultural or societal factors that influence whether or not girls form bands and whether or not they manage to do this successfully enough to get invited to play at events such as the Camden Crawl. They can do all this just as easily (or with the same level of difficulty) as boys.

If all this is the case, then why then do so few of them (relatively speaking) actually do it?
It seems to me that there are only two possible answers. One is that they are simply not good at it, and the other is that they are not interested in it. Most people here seem to, either explicitly or implicitly, be saying the latter. I suppose this is something of a relief as its way better than the girls-are-crap argument, but I still think it's bullshit for the following reason.

Someone at the very beginning asked something like "how many blacks are playing at it?". Ha ha. The obvious answer to this is "not very many .. possible none .. I don't know exactly". But, the related question is "how many blacks are attending it?". I imagine the answer to that is also "not very many .. possibly none .. I don't know exactly". It might be reasonable to conclude from this that they are not that interested. Anyone whose gig in the Workmans or something over the weekend was completely overrun with Nigerians can contradict me on this if I am wrong.

However, there are plenty of women at all these gigs (right?) so clearly they are interested. Is it really credible that they want to be in the audience but not on the stage? Is it really credible that you can have fairly equal levels of participation in other fields of cultural production such as theatre and visual art but not here? And that there is no possibility of any kind of underlying structural reason (or set of reasons) for this situation? Really? I just don't buy that.

Like I said we discussed this before in an earlier thread. My theory was that most people form their first bands during adolesence and regardless of musical abiity it is during this period (for most people) that they find themselves drawn to continually making music. Unfortunately there are thousands of studies that show that adolescent girls are more self conscious than boys and so this anxiety is a major stumbling block in the way of a young teenage girl in a band and in her future relationship to performing in a band in the future. It's not just music either, less girls engage in team sports, this too has it's roots in body image and anxiety.

Starting a band has nothing to do with ability, I could barely play smells like teen spirit when i started my first band, and we were total shit. The only thing that is required is a degree of self confidence. Boys tend to be far more extraverted during adolescence than girls and as a result more start bands, play shitty punk covers and get hooked on the idea of being in a band.

The founding principal of girlsrockcamp.org (from what I can tell, the site is down at the moment) is to

build girls' self-esteem through music creation and performance.

I whole heartedly endorse this. In fact I think it's pretty vital in creating a more even split in gender in the music scene as a whole.

I'm sure nearly every man here would love nothing more than having more women involved in music. (and less punks)

What I don't endorse is a series of unqualified statistics which point a finger of blame at a festival or a series of irrelevant anecdotes from garnered mostly from America which seem intended to paint the Irish music scene as having a male bias.

Lastly I find it troubling that the Irish branch of Girls Rock Camp deem it so important to politicise their actions so heavily.

This is from girlsrockcamp.org

Girls can play any kind of music they want.
Creative voices of girls and women need to be amplified to create social change.
Girls need positive role models and support for their creative endeavors.
…in creating a community where girls support each other rather than tear each other down.
…in empowering girls to recognize, understand,
 and respond to discrimination.
“Girls Rock” is more than just a slogan.

And I have no problem what so ever with it

this is from Girls Rock Camp Ireland

We want to destroy the traditions and eradicate the myths that prevent women* and girls* from participating in the (until now) male dominated Irish and international music scene.

One mentions a derivative of the word "create" 4 times and mentions "girls" 5 times.

The other mentions the word destroy and male domination the same amount of times as "girl" and doesn't mention creativity once. For me this is hugely problematic. This whole thread has been badly researched and antagonistic. It offers no insight and generally is the complete opposite of the message of what young girls should be told. Which is, as myself Ernesto, Das Nugs and Scutter have said over and over again


There is nothing stopping you, go form a band right now.

 

[GARYXKNIFEDX]

I'm sure nearly every man here would love nothing more than having more women involved in music. (and less punks)

This is exactly the problem,not enough punks.