How many Irish diy punk bands work with a producer? (2 Viewers)

[GARYXKNIFEDX]

Well nobody is going to hire a producer that they don't like the sound of and if they do, its probably their own fault for not checking out stuff first. There isn't a band on the planet that doesn't have an aspiration of sounding like something or a combination of somethings and 'sounds better' is usually landing somewhere between these markers. Getting a producer who has done that consistently over a few records is going to make that easier.

There's countless tales of people working with their dream producer and then being let down by the recording.

I'm completely the wrong person for this argument anyway,as I don't care about other bands mistakes. If they make a good record,it's good,if they make a bad record it's bad. And it doesn't matter to me if it was recorded on a cassette four track or in Abbey Road.

 

[GARYXKNIFEDX]

Just thinking on it..I reckon any band that went ahead..and used a producer and made a record that was just fucking enormous..would get fucking slated left and right on Eirecore.

given they way everone goes bananas for all the metal bands these days,I really don't think they would.

 

[GO]

I think someone's suggestion on an improvement of sound to make a bands sound more distorted, heavier, whatever by using different amps, medals, instruments and everything to create a better sounding record would be great but to change a sound into something else is something entirely different.

ZACTLY

Bottom line..I'm talking about the sound..about making things sound out of this world.

Conversely to what Garys saying..I've heard too many records by amazing bands that just lack in the production dept..theres plenty of great stuff to be enjoyed..but if its a bit flat sounding..its not doing the job as well as it could.And at the end of the day..its about given the listener the most visceral, exciting experience possible.
Whatever it takes.

 

[GARYXKNIFEDX]

Surely that's an engineer and not a producer?

Would a producer not help in song arrangement etc?

 

[ann post]

There's countless tales of people working with their dream producer and then being let down by the recording.

I'm completely the wrong person for this argument anyway,as I don't care about other bands mistakes. If they make a good record,it's good,if they make a bad record it's bad. And it doesn't matter to me if it was recorded on a cassette four track or in Abbey Road.

Of course there are, the countless tales of satisfaction and surpassed expectation are less fun to read. Also, if a band DIY's there will be less lengthly interviews about how shit a job they did of the recording and how little it represents what they wanted to achieve. Nobody is questioning your taste by the way, be it 4 track or whatever, it is actually still production. If one lad in a band has a tape machine and the band are cool with doing it that way, then the band are the producer. production isn't just hiring some lad in pair aviators to sniff coke off your amps.

 

[GO]

Surely that's an engineer and not a producer?

Would a producer not help in song arrangement etc?

Yeah..a producer would definitely point out weaknesses in the arrangement..and they'd also be the one to point out stuff like..heres the chorus..NOW kick in with the extra wide guitars..just simple shit like that.But is often overlooked by the artists,because..and I'm speaking as a recording person myself..when you're in the middle of it..you don't see it from above.

 

[GARYXKNIFEDX]

Maybe I'm wrong,but you're coming across as that just because a band is DIY then they will sound bad? (Generalising as much as me?)

I enterprated the question as being working with outside producer's as well. I'm not sure I'd consider recording yourself as being in a producer's role,although I kinda understand what you're saying.

(In response to ann post)

 

[ann post]

Not bad, i mean like the band made the choice to do a tape based production, so that made them the producers. perception of a producer as being some overbearing or external force isn't necessary to the description of the role, its just something that happens in making every recording. Someone makes creative decisions regarding the sound, people agree, thats all it is.

 

[GARYXKNIFEDX]

See,I'd consider,as above,that to be more of an engineer. And with that in mind,I'd imagine there are a lot of producer's who really are actually good engineers.

When I hear of producers who dramatically rearrange songs,and then some,I wonder do they get a writing credit?

 

[Space]

I'd imagine most bands pick their recording engineer/studio as they'd know that the engineer can throw some production ideas in the mix (no pun). This would be especially so with a session where the recording engineer is also the mixing engineer and perhaps the mastering engineer too. Take James and Eoin in the Hive who probably record the majority of Irish DIY Punk, people don't choose these guys just because they are good recording engineers but also because they have quality production and mixing skills too.

Personally I find a few pairs of trusted ears should do the job without having to pony up for an extra person to pay out of the already stretched budget.

Also as per the couple of posts above me there, I'm pretty sure the thread is about getting in an external producer as opposed to self producing otherwise the answer to the question would be "all of them".

 

[ann post]

See,I'd consider,as above,that to be more of an engineer.

When I hear of producers who dramatically rearrange songs,and then some,I wonder do they get a writing credit?

yeah the guys who actually work the songs do get credit in pop situations anyways, but then if you ever look up 'redone' who does lady gaga (which you don't need to really) her prime contribution seems to be her voice, its not exactly light touch production. same for most of the mainstream guys.
Chris Goss who produced welcome to sky valley just tries really hard to make a band sound like a band, i love his production actually, and he'd have originated as a DIY guy i think.

RE: moose, yes, i know its a bit strayed off 'the question'.

in a case where you just have an engineer and a band, what happens in retrospect is that people will still talk about 'the production' of the record, so even when there isn't someone there with intent or role as a producer, it still happens or is perceived to have happened, and if someone was asking the answer is probably 'the band + the engineer + some guy'. an example of this would be my own stuff, i get 'lo-fi production*' a lot when people talk about my stuff, so apparently some production has gone down wether i like it or not and apparently i did it, though as you said, in the moment of doing it, i was engineering.

*which i swear blind it isn't.

 

[GARYXKNIFEDX]

Actually,I do like some stuff Chris Goss has done.

 

[OLP]

Wasn't it the producer (Rick Rubin?) who told Slayer to play Reign In Blood faster? That guy was spot on the money!

 

[DROG]

A producer is a very vague term . I have worked with a few producers on various different genres of music ( None of them Punk / metal ) and there roles varied greatly ... Some producers have a huge impact on the song arrangements and style and some just give a very limited input . Rick Rubin is notorious for this , rumor is he told slayer to play faster then left and came back when the record was finished !

 

[closed groove]

ZACTLY

Bottom line..I'm talking about the sound..about making things sound out of this world.

Conversely to what Garys saying..I've heard too many records by amazing bands that just lack in the production dept..theres plenty of great stuff to be enjoyed..but if its a bit flat sounding..its not doing the job as well as it could.And at the end of the day..its about given the listener the most visceral, exciting experience possible.
Whatever it takes.

I think also alot can be said for mastering it is that extra cost that alot of bands are not willing to shell out for but the extra couple of hundred to master their recordings is something that can add to the final product of the recording. I have seen the difference it can make to a record I have seen one record go from a good record to as you said "the most visceral, exciting experience possible." Does that come into the producer field where the producer says this needs to be mastered by such a studio/person???

 

[GO]

I think also alot can be said for mastering it is that extra cost that alot of bands are not willing to shell out for but the extra couple of hundred to master their recordings is something that can add to the final product of the recording. I have seen the difference it can make to a record I have seen one record go from a good record to as you said "the most visceral, exciting experience possible." Does that come into the producer field where the producer says this needs to be mastered by such a studio/person???

its not about mastering.Mastering cant make a bad mix good,You gotta have a great mix..mastering just means it'll sound the same regardless of playback device.
A shit mix will still suck ,mastered or not.Mastering can send a whopper mix over the top for sure.But its gotta be a whopper mix.

And thats what I'm getting at..during the maelstrom of creativity the artist might not be looking at the big picture..sloppy notes..undesired harsh tones.all sorts can go unnoticed..producer can hear them and head them off at the pass.

am I right lemonbravo; ?

 

[Anthony]

The closest Large Mound ever got to a producer was when we were going into a strange studio and we wanted someone "on our side" in the control room with the engineer/studio owner. We brought Pete Sisk who also was going mix the session. It proved very useful. Not sure how much actual work he had to do on the day but it was worth it just to have him there sitting with the engineer while we were all busy in another room. Plus he was another set of ears that were on our wavelength. He was able to tell us if we needed to do another take and so on when we might have been happy with what we just played. I'm sure the process made the mix easier for him too.
Band dynamics can be weird and having a trusted person there can help in all sorts of ways. If helped in out case that the person was also going to do the mix but even just someone who likes the band but also loves music and is objective and confident enough say what has to be said.

Also talking about your ears telling you lies when you're in the eye on the process. I recently listened to an old Mound song I mixed and was horrified (all over the place levels, out of tune etc). True that most listeners hear what they hear and that's the song but the composer hears one thing in their head and hears nothing but mistakes from then on. I'd like to get that song remixed as an experiment.

 

[lemonbravo]

its not about mastering.Mastering cant make a bad mix good,You gotta have a great mix..mastering just means it'll sound the same regardless of playback device.
A shit mix will still suck ,mastered or not.Mastering can send a whopper mix over the top for sure.But its gotta be a whopper mix.

And thats what I'm getting at..during the maelstrom of creativity the artist might not be looking at the big picture..sloppy notes..undesired harsh tones.all sorts can go unnoticed..producer can hear them and head them off at the pass.

am I right lemonbravo; ?

pretty much.

Certainly if there's a problem in your mixing environment and your low E bass note sounds awesome in your environment, but non existent in everyone's else, then mastering can help with that and help with other things also. It's more about presentation, impact. Not the finer details of the production sound. Take what's there and try and improve sonically if possible, if not, do less.

but no, you can't take a apart a mix at the mastering stage to a point where sloppy notes can be fixed. You can give feedback though and say "there's some sloppy notes there, do you want to re-visit that?". I've sent many a mix back, but often the budget/time isn't there to re-record.

Definitely having someone to bounce off that you trust is a great asset, producer/engineer etc. Specially if you're doing a lot of the work yourself e.g. recording/mixing.
But also, if you're going in to a studio with an engineer that doesn't really know you, they might think your sloppy notes are the best you can do.


Anthony's post sums it up nicely.


There's an Albini article somewhere (I think a forward to one of the Tape Op books?), about how 'everyone loves the demo'. Band demos some songs and they have an energy that just can't be re-created in the studio with the 'Producer' and nice studio toys.

There is no right or wrong way to do these things, but I do hear a lot of stuff and think, god I wish that band had of had some money and recorded those songs with someone/somewhere better.

 

[RED(tape)MENACE]

1. 95% of the 'Producers' in Irish DIY/Indie/Punk music are also the engineer/mixer/mastering guy.
It's just inevitable with the small scene, budgets etc. and in no way a bad thing.

2. THE most important thing a 'Producer' can bring to the table is experience.
The band between them might have made 5 or 6 full length records. Maybe.
Chances are the 'Producer' has made 50 or 60.
On each record they'll be learning, discovering what works in some situations and not others, gaining experience.
It's invaluable having that experience available, it improves the record in every conceivable department.

I think it's best to separate :
a ) what a producer brings to the table in terms of experience, a fresh set of ears and being able to mediate between differing opinions while maintaining an overview of the whole project.
b ) choosing the right producer for YOUR project so that you get all the benefits above.

 

[EGE YURTUM]

Many bands will want to simply capture what they believe to be their ideal live sound in a recording situation and to this end, the idea of production as something extra is somewhat superfulous. This can vary depending on what type of "punk" any given band is playing. A certain lack of concern for these finer elements of the recording process adds character to some punk bands and makes others sound bad so it's difficult to generalise. I don't think that the Misfits could have benefited from glossy production for example.