ATT Those who intend to vote YES to NICE (1 Viewer)

[silo]

"If you dont understand what kind of people get 'punished' in punishment beatings"

i do, but that doesn't justify the act.

"(and actually its something sinn fein has spoken out against)"

but, as ever, actions speak louder than words.

"then you should do some research on the state of the policing system in the north, and why normal people make requests to paramilitary groups (loyalist and nationalist) to sort out troublemakers."

i have, and i'm well aware that i'd prefer the cheka as my police than the r.u.c., however...

"My point is, educate yourself a bit first before going down that debate route since its very murky territory and not always clear cut"

...sure, agreed. nothingh is ever clear-cut when a person or group is trying to act in a morally compromised position. you appeared to be implying a moral justification for "punishment" beatings and the like, at which point your argument rapidly falls to pieces.

"Outdated is your attitude."

this is just rhetoric. your subjective interpretation of what "outdated" means doesn't make it into a valid point.

"You obviously dont like shinners, probably think the north should be sectioned off and let them kill each other and more than likely dont really give a shit since your from the south and people years ago made sarcrifices for your current freedom so who gives a shit eh!"

now it gets pointless, and silly. there's no point in simply putting words in my mouth and then giving out to me for something i haven't gone near mentioning. needless to say, i disagree with the position outlined above; it's ridiculous, but i shouldn't even have to say that i do; you've said it and then attributed it to me.

"In case youve had your head buried somewhere for the past 7 years, you might have noticed most other people have moved on a bit from the mindless slagging of sinn fein without cause, a tradition well organised in the media, which you seem to like to carry on."

it's not mindless slagging, at least in my case. implying that you're the victim of a media conspiracy may to a certain extent be true, but that's got nothing to do with what's being said here.

"socialism? sin feins a bit weird in that regard"

too true.

" .. some are through and through solicaists, others arent. Im not."

which makes your earlier comments about working-class people quite strange: why mention them in a political context if you're not implying class conflict? this is having your cake and eating it.

"I just want to see peace in ireland and no other party really seems to be going that route except sinn fein."

you may well believe that, i don't. fine.

"Henceforth why I'd like to know why you feel the way you do about it..."

i don't have some special feeling which i reserve just for members of sinn fein. there are plenty of people in plenty of parties who are willing to put up with all kinds of hypocrisies. if i'm talking to someone about something political, i like to do so in such a way that hypocrisy is not obscuring other issues. that's all.

"and why you can assume things and post them at me as though you've a right to look down at me for being a shinner"

i don't have any such "right"; it doesn't exist. i'm not looking down at you, i'm simply pointing out certain things about sinn fein as a party which i find to be objectionable, after you asking me about them.

 

[Chocohead]

Originally posted by silo
i do, but that doesn't justify the act.


Yes, but again you're telling me sinn fein does this .. i disagree


but, as ever, actions speak louder than words.

And what exactly can they do but speak out about it then? go up there and kick ass??


i have, and i'm well aware that i'd prefer the cheka as my police than the r.u.c., however...

however what? So if you lived there you'd be politically correct whilst you couldnt go near your local police force? I dont think so .. i reckon you'd be recommending a few people to get a good kicking as well if you had too.



...sure, agreed. nothingh is ever clear-cut when a person or group is trying to act in a morally compromised position. you appeared to be implying a moral justification for "punishment" beatings and the like, at which point your argument rapidly falls to pieces.

Im sorry, but im afraid Ive made no moral link. whats going on in the north isnt moral, real life for some people maybe, easy to snide at from afar, but certainly not moral. but thats life. I dont know what expiernce you may have had with punishment beatings in the north associated with the IRA and I obviously havent had too many myself, but of the ones I have heard about from people who live up there and which happened in their locality, 95% of those receiving punishment deserved it. Again, the cops wouldnt deal with them. Obviously that arsing around in derry wasnt in that 95%. these things happen though. I hope thaey catch the fuckers who did that.

Anyway, i disagree with you .. my argue doesnt fall to pieces.

this is just rhetoric. your subjective interpretation of what "outdated" means doesn't make it into a valid point.

No its not rhetoric. You dont seem willing to view sinn fein as anything but dirty criminals. Thats an outdated view.


now it gets pointless, and silly. there's no point in simply putting words in my mouth and then giving out to me for something i haven't gone near mentioning. needless to say, i disagree with the position outlined above; it's ridiculous, but i shouldn't even have to say that i do; you've said it and then attributed it to me.

True, but you have me clutching at straws since you havent even tried to define your reasoning yet. I dont understand how you justify your thoughts on what we're discussing since you never offer any insight


it's not mindless slagging, at least in my case. implying that you're the victim of a media conspiracy may to a certain extent be true, but that's got nothing to do with what's being said here.]

I never said it di.d. What i was saying was that your way of putting down sinn fein without actually coming up with any definable reasoning is a bit like the media.



which makes your earlier comments about working-class people quite strange: why mention them in a political context if you're not implying class conflict? this is having your cake and eating it.

No it doesnt. So to have a social concience I have to be an out and out socialist? thats a tad childish. what cake did I have and when did i eat it?


you may well believe that, i don't. fine.

Obviously. Why dont you? who else is trying? Who kick started the thing in the first place? remember how everyone in ireland slagged the shit out of john hume for talking to gerry adams and then when the thing worked, major was claiming he started the process?? If sinn fein wasnt, and still arent the prime mover in the peace process then who is?


i don't have some special feeling which i reserve just for members of sinn fein. there are plenty of people in plenty of parties who are willing to put up with all kinds of hypocrisies. if i'm talking to someone about something political, i like to do so in such a way that hypocrisy is not obscuring other issues. that's all.


You still havent explained the reasoning behind your negative attitude towards sinn fein. I get the feeling you wont either
"hypocrisy is not obscuring other issues" - I still need you to tell me how sinn fein are involved with punishment beatings..... which I think was one of the original things I asked ...

i don't have any such "right"; it doesn't exist. i'm not looking down at you, i'm simply pointing out certain things about sinn fein as a party which i find to be objectionable, after you asking me about them.

granted, but that was the impression i got since you have forgotton to explain your "simply pointing out certain things about sinn fein as a party i find to be objectionable".

Its fine to disagree with a point of view, but I find it awkward to reply to a series of one lined answers that dont answer anything I put to you. We have a discussion on sin fein, you make statements, I ask you what I mean and then you turn experiuence plitician on me and give me answers that contain no answers and dont explain much.

 

[P. Littbarski]

i partly agree with some of the points both of you'se are making..

on one hand not everybody who is a political member of sinn fein is an evil IRA loving person, but surely there is an element within the party which has/did have sympathetic views or even direct contact (in whatever capacity) with the IRA. to deny this would be foolish...

then again, there are plenty of Political Parties worldwide, parties in power that are seen as good, honest, law abiding parties, whose members and leaders have probably signed documents which have either directly or indirectly caused more deaths and more attrocities than all the political/nationalist/loyalist groups in northern ireland combined...madeline albright springs to mind...yet we speak to them and have no problems in engaging in open dialogue with these people...yet when it comes to sinn fein people are uncomfortable in talking to them, yet they would welcome george bush and bill clinton with open arms...strange.

however it can't be denied that Sinn fein has been sympathetic to the ira (to what real extent only a few people know and this has to stop...it's counter productive to be associated with killers who have killed men, women and children from both sides...i never felt that the leadership of sinn feinn condemmed the ira and their actions with enough conviction...thats a personal opinion which many others also share

on the flipside of that point...do we still blame the germans and their leadership today for world war two and all the atrocities back then ? of course not...all the irish political parties and leaders throughout history who fought for independance have also been responsible for atrocities and killings, yet we now accept those political parties in everyday irish politics.

 

[Chocohead]

i agree that obviously theres some contact alright, but then again if sinn fein is to have any influence on what the ira does, as is expected for the peace process, then there'd have to be some form of contact. Hopefully in a few decades time the ira (and the various other paramilitary groups) wont exist any more

 

[silo]

(first up, i think this'll have to be my last post about this today, i have to do some work...)

"Yes, but again you're telling me sinn fein does this .. i disagree"

the i.r.a. does it. if you're going to tell me that sinn fein and the i.r.a. aren't two sides of the same coin then there's really no point going on.

"And what exactly can they do but speak out about it then? go up there and kick ass??"

the i.r.a. are the people doing this! they are kicking ass, literally, but in the other direction! they are the ones carrying out a significant proportion of the "punishment" beatings, whether or not sinn fein has condemned them. sinn fein's policy becomes irrelevant once the actual act itself is being carried out by sinn fein's other half.

"however what? So if you lived there you'd be politically correct whilst you couldnt go near your local police force? I dont think so .. i reckon you'd be recommending a few people to get a good kicking as well if you had too. Im sorry, but im afraid Ive made no moral link. whats going on in the north isnt moral, real life for some people maybe, easy to snide at from afar, but certainly not moral. but thats life."

well then don't try to justify it as a political standpoint!

"I dont know what expiernce you may have had with punishment beatings in the north associated with the IRA and I obviously havent had too many myself, but of the ones I have heard about from people who live up there and which happened in their locality, 95% of those receiving punishment deserved it. Again, the cops wouldnt deal with them. Obviously that arsing around in derry wasnt in that 95%. these things happen though. I hope thaey catch the fuckers who did that."

that's fine, if that's the limit of your argument. however, you're defending sinn fein, a party which claims to stand for values like human rights. a thought experiment suggests itself here. imagine the british army were proposing a system of justice involving going around beating people up with baseball bats with a prior admission that they were going to be wrong 5% of the time and that other people might do this also whilst pretending to be them. what would the reaction of sinn fein be?

of course, "punishment" beatings aren't actually the policy of sinn fein. you seem to think they're a good idea, and you're giving your feelings on the matter from your standpoint defending sinn fein, so you should really decide whether, with regard to this, you're giving your personal opinion or whether you're defending sinn fein.

"No its not rhetoric. You dont seem willing to view sinn fein as anything but dirty criminals. Thats an outdated view."

i don't view sinn fein as "dirty criminals", so don't try to imply that i do. however, even if i did, calling it "an outdated view" is essentially avoiding the issue by instead deciding for me that you can objectively say what "outdated" is. i could similarly answer a point of yours by saying "you're calling me bad, and that's a purple view", or "you're saying i'm wrong, and that's a fat view". for a start, tell my why it's outdated, if you can. by that i mean define what you mean by outdated, and then demonstrate how i conform to this definition, not just refer to me as "outdated" because you alone know what "outdated" means. otherwise, it's rhetoric.

"True, but you have me clutching at straws since you havent even tried to define your reasoning yet. I dont understand how you justify your thoughts on what we're discussing since you never offer any insight"

"I never said it di.d. What i was saying was that your way of putting down sinn fein without actually coming up with any definable reasoning is a bit like the media."

see point about reasoning (*) below.

"No it doesnt. So to have a social concience I have to be an out and out socialist? thats a tad childish. what cake did I have and when did i eat it?"

you are a member of a party that calls itself socialist. yet you are not a socialist.

you were defending that party by invoking the socialist principle of working-class solidarity, yet you claim not to conform to this point of view.

you claimed i was an authoritarian reactionary who was scared of working class solidarity yet this is something you now claim not to support.

"Obviously. Why dont you? who else is trying? Who kick started the thing in the first place? remember how everyone in ireland slagged the shit out of john hume for talking to gerry adams and then when the thing worked, major was claiming he started the process?? If sinn fein wasnt, and still arent the prime mover in the peace process then who is?"

i'm not denying that sinn fein aren't a prime motivator of the peace process. i accept what you've said above. i'm challenging sinn fein on other grounds.

(*)"You still havent explained the reasoning behind your negative attitude towards sinn fein. I get the feeling you wont either"

my reasoning, to the extent that it's there and relevant to what we're talking about, is that all authority should be questioned as a matter of principle. it's nothing to do with sinn fein. that's not a "politician's answer" or an "evasion"; i simply don't have some party line to be defending.

"I still need you to tell me how sinn fein are involved with punishment beatings..... which I think was one of the original things I asked ..."

the i.r.a. are involved in punishment beatings. sinn fein is the political wing of the i.r.a.

 

[Chocohead]

this time round I dont have to requote you all the time

sinn fein IS NOT the IRA. I think you will have to grasp that fact because you really dont seem to understand it.

Fine, associate the two all you want .. and I'll say here and now that if the IRA didnt exist then there defintely would not be a peace process, though there would obviously still be violence up there, so personally I'm glad they did exist, but their time is coming to an end .. they arent needed any more. Some people would complain about having to bomb ones way to the table, but unfortunately there was no other way of getting there. thats not an assumption .. a quick glance at history will bear that fact out.

Sinn fein of now, as in for the past half a decade, have been working towards peace. you tell me sinn fein and the ira are the same, i say wise up and smell the coffee, because they arent. If you insist they are, fine, but give me some proof, thanks. The rira planted a bomb in castlederg, tyrone this week and the unionists still insiist it was the ira ... theres no debating with that mind set. I get the impression theres no point in debating with you either since you seem to be convinced that the IRA and sinn fein are the same. a s I said, thats a very outdated point of view .. and very narrow one as well. In fact, as a member of sinn fein, i can say that that point of view is bullshit.

granted, there has to be some contact, lets be realistic. After all, sinn fein are expected to lead the ira to peace (and get grief when the ira dont listen) so its kind of fucked for being in touch with the ira and fucked for not being.

I doubt we'll get very far with the whole peace thing if people dont wise up and give SF a decent chance. dont even get me started on the 'raid' on the offices in belfast and its farsical reverberations (5 people lifted, only one is in sinn fein) ....

 

[Chocohead]

"that's fine, if that's the limit of your argument. however, you're defending sinn fein, a party which claims to stand for values like human rights. a thought experiment suggests itself here. imagine the british army were proposing a system of justice involving going around beating people up with baseball bats with a prior admission that they were going to be wrong 5% of the time and that other people might do this also whilst pretending to be them. what would the reaction of sinn fein be? "

they've been doing a version of that for years btw ...... i cant count the number of times Ive been harrassed, thumped, shouted at, spat at etc by BA soldiers. obviously ive never been killed by them but many other innocent people have.

 

[Chocohead]

one last quick one ...

sinn fein is not a socialist group. its has its root support in the working class alright, but nowhere does it say you have to be a socialist.

when i say you have an outdated view, [which makes much more sense that a purple or fat view (thats actually quite funny how you made those associations), ] i refer to statements like your "you are a member of a party that calls itself socialist. yet you are not a socialist. "

Maybe sinn fein was 20 years ago, but its basis is not a complete socialist one. AND, explain that word socialist, since it ranges from left to communism, so I dont know how you can use it in such a defined way anyway

well then don't try to justify it as a political standpoint!

I honestly have no fucking idea what the 'it' is that your referring to .... Im not trying to justify punishment beatings, just trying to explain the reality to you.....

 

[silo]

"Fine, associate the two all you want...

etc..."

sinn fein is the political wing of the ira. everybody accepts this. after that point you're really just arguing over their comparative influence over eachother: does sinn fein control the i.r.a. or vice versa, to what extent is there a crossover of leadership, whose allegiances are where.

"they've been doing a version of that for years btw ...... i cant count the number of times Ive been harrassed, thumped, shouted at, spat at etc by BA soldiers. obviously ive never been killed by them but many other innocent people have."

but that doesn't justify "punishment" beatings. by your own argument, it makes you just as bad as them.

 

[silo]

"sinn fein is not a socialist group."

...but from www.sinnfein.ie ...

"We are the only party bringing a distinctly republican and socialist analysis into the heart of Irish politics."

 

[Chocohead]

man, so they bring a socialist analysis and that makes them hard core socialists. catch a grip eh?

Sinn fein is the political wing of the ira? Not anymore they arent. There is a transition going on at the minute which has obviously passed you by. sinn fein where the political wing of the ira, but since the late 80s early 90s they've been moving away from that towards a political solution. You've had you ears and eyes firmly shut to all that then I take it ....

but that doesn't justify "punishment" beatings. by your own argument, it makes you just as bad as them.

how does that make me as bad as anybody? wtf are you on about there? Are you saying that I punish people? getting a bit desperate there arent you ....

 

[silo]

Originally posted by Chocohead
man, so they bring a socialist analysis and that makes them hard core socialists. catch a grip eh?

they said they're socialists. i said i'm a socialist. you say you're not. but you're the one who's a member of the party.

Originally posted by Chocohead
Sinn fein is the political wing of the ira? Not anymore they arent. There is a transition going on at the minute which has obviously passed you by. sinn fein where the political wing of the ira, but since the late 80s early 90s they've been moving away from that towards a political solution. You've had you ears and eyes firmly shut to all that then I take it ....

both sides of the coin, sinn fein and the i.r.a., are obviously moving towards an overall settlement which they view as "peaceful". this doesn't mean they're not just as associated with eachother as they were, just that they've been convinced of the metits of one political path over another. sinn fein is the political wing of the ira. to deny it is just silly.

Originally posted by Chocohead
how does that make me as bad as anybody? wtf are you on about there? Are you saying that I punish people? getting a bit desperate there arent you ....

you were trying to justify sinn fein's stance on the beatings. then you posted stuff about how the british army are "just as bad" as the ira. yeah, i must be getting really desperate to point something as obvious as that out.

 

[Chocohead]

heheh. I wasnt trying to justify sinn feins things on the beatings because i stated they arent responsible in the first place so whats there to justify

Lets hit this socialism thing on the head here. Socialism covers beliefs from loving your neighbour to near communisim, so please dont use the word as though it actually pinpoints anything ... to me treating people as equals and respecting their views is socialism .. its also common sense which I already have, so I dont give it another term to reference it by.

Sinn feins stance on socialism arose from the unequal alliance between unionists and non unionists, so I'd guess if you interviewed every shinner in the country you'd probably find most of them view socialism as a form of 'decency and common sense' rather than some form of dictator led but in the 'guise of the people and take all the money off the rich while we're at it' form of socialism.

so therefore, if Im a socialist or not depends on how you term it. I got the ipression from you that you might think socialism is somthing you have to subscribe to rather than just natuarally feel, so if thats how you term it, them Im not. If not, then I am.



class little debate btw .. nice one. I cant continue though cus Ive drank too much brandy to type

 

[silo]

sorry, you're right. "socialism" is a debased word. maybe "libertarian socialist" or something. i do see socialism as the application of common sense.

I'm:

Economic Left/Right: -8.88
Authoritarian/Libertarian: -9.69

http://www.digitalronin.f2s.com/politicalcompass/index.html

 

[Keeror]

SF have always vacillated between beinga republican socialist party and a hard nut law'n'order right wing party. It all depends who's on the other side at the time.

As for punishment beatings, did I not hear on the radio today that an SF member has been given 6 years in prison for being involved in a punishment squad in Cork?

 

[Chocohead]

"hard nut law'n'order right wing party"

Im sorry, we obviously live on different planets. are you just going to spout rubbish or can you explain that line. Right wing my arse .. law in order maybe, but if you dont know why that is Im not explaining it to you.

As for cork .. ive no idea .. did you? a link might help...

 

[silo]

Originally posted by Chocohead
Right wing my arse .. law in order maybe, but if you dont know why that is Im not explaining it to you.

keeror has a point. sinn féin's preoccupation with nationalism means that the other policies in the party can be wildly divergent. and as for saying "law n' order maybe", well, what is more right-wing/authoritarian than that?

Originally posted by Chocohead
As for cork .. ive no idea .. did you? a link might help...

http://www.indymedia.ie/cgi-bin/newswire.cgi?id=16336

 

[billygannon]

My position on Sinn Fein is this:

They advocated brutal terrorist attacks for several years. This stance was inhumane, and it is something that is very hard to forget. I do not believe in an "eye for an eye" philosophy, and it is also impossible to forget the very deep emotional scars that IRA terrorism caused. By simply saying that the view that Sinn Fein being linked to terrorism is outdated is remarkably insensitive to those who suffered both physically and emotionally at the hands of an organisation whose acts Sinn Fein advocated.

Sinn Fein must come out and say that they were wrong, that their so-called war is over and profoundly apologise for their disgraceful behaviour throughout the "Troubles".

 

[Chocohead]

i dont think the IRA were wrong. Its great looking back and saying they shouldnt have done this or that, but I dont think they have to apologise.

or if they do, then they should whenever the UVF, UDA, UDR RUC and the BA also come out and say sorry for the countless murders they have inflicted on the general nationalist populaton. Personally I think thats a waste of valuable time .. the window of opportunity that exists is getting smaller and smaller. Besides, the IRA and sinn fien have both already apoligised for deaths caused during the troubles (even though the percentage of IRA murders is actually less than that of others, mainly loyalists)

I think people should give sinn fein support now, since there could easily be a split and you'll have gerry adams and the main leadership on one hand, opposed by the rira, cira and others who dont think the brits can be trusted to help bring peace. Then we'll all be in the shit.

Seriously, get real, unmount oneselves from the high horses and try and understand what is currently happening in your country. thats if you believe the north to be part of ireland.

I cant really enter a debate on what the ira have done in the past - personally i think that if they didnt do what they did, a unionist stormont would still exist and people like my parents still wouldnt be able to buy a house because its loyalist owner didnt want to sell it to them.

I dunno. I dont know anyones background, but when I was young it was very common to get mugged by loyalist gangs, i was even chased out of a night club by 3 british soldiers. On more than one occasion a mob attacked my parents car while the cops looked on, nevermind the number of times I was stopped, search and riddiculed.

I dont blame people for joining the IRA under such circumstances and I dont blame the IRA for the war, which billy according to you is 'so-called war'.

You know, I wish you were brought up where I was brought up in the 80's and by god your attitude would be completely different.

As I said, you should look at this a bit more realistically.

"By simply saying that the view that Sinn Fein being linked to terrorism is outdated is remarkably insensitive to those who suffered both physically and emotionally at the hands of an organisation whose acts Sinn Fein advocated. "

yeah billy, thats right .. i wont even bother answering that kind of statement. You obviously think theres only one side so I'd be wasting my time

 

[silo]

the sinn féin answer is standard: no one has a monopoly on suffering, all deaths are regrettable, and what's more the i.r.a. recently did apologise. etc etc etc.

however, a couple of contextual points come to mind. the state forces in northern ireland were in the process of implementing a form of apartheid by the late 60's, to the extent that there were refugee camps in the republic for northern catholics fleeing the north, something which is often forgotten. all actions have to be considered within their context, and there was a serious argument for community self-defence by nationalists/republicans (misleading terms both) at the time. the fact that these efforts at self defence were to a certain extent hijacked by those with a nationalist/republican agenda (as opposed to, say, a libertarian one) is now somewhat of an academic issue, but the result was the i.r.a. "war". it's easy for us to sit here and condemn actions that are objectively horrific if we ignore the context.

Originally posted by billygannon
My position on Sinn Fein is this:

They advocated brutal terrorist attacks for several years. This stance was inhumane, and it is something that is very hard to forget. I do not believe in an "eye for an eye" philosophy, and it is also impossible to forget the very deep emotional scars that IRA terrorism caused. By simply saying that the view that Sinn Fein being linked to terrorism is outdated is remarkably insensitive to those who suffered both physically and emotionally at the hands of an organisation whose acts Sinn Fein advocated.

Sinn Fein must come out and say that they were wrong, that their so-called war is over and profoundly apologise for their disgraceful behaviour throughout the "Troubles".