alt="" vs name=""??? (1 Viewer)

[krystal]

I find this all really interesting. It's my PASSION. If I was in the back of Now magazine describing my passions, web accessibility would be one of them.

And Tom, I'm going to a conference next week at which one of the topics will be moving towards a European mark for accessibility. Miss P - here, while there is no legal requirement like section 508 for public sector sites, the government has committed to the e europe action plan which does have specific requirements for the provision and availability of basic services. You could argue that one of those basic services is a properly accessible website. So I think it quite likely that we will have a ruling at some stage on it. And I don't think that it will be expected that everyone will or should have every offering accessible immediately. For example, older PDF's aren't accessible. Sites can have 'roadmaps' which detail their progress and plans to make content and structure accessible and compliant. I'd say it'll be handled like they're handling the Irish Languages Act. And the irony of the ILA is that providing a website in 2 languages immediately alienates the irish speaking screen reader users as there is no screen reader support for Irish. So I think there's a phd project in there for someone.

 

[Denny Oubidoux]

I find this all really interesting. It's my PASSION. If I was in the back of Now magazine describing my passions, web accessibility would be one of them.

i will admit to finding it very interesting too, and having known nothing at all about accessibility a few months ago it seems a bit disgraceful now to disregard it, im just tired of dealing with it all day every day as i have been lately and trying to think up interesting and intelligent things to say about it when i have only the barest grasp on the whole concept anyway. oh well. so what/who is your favorite accessibility issue/guru?

would you say PDFs are an example of a non text element that require a text equivalent?

 

[krystal]

I find them all to be a bit annoying and sanctimonious actually, in one way or another. Jacob Neilsen because he's so fucking dogmatic and wants all webpages to look like shit, Jeffrey Zeldman because he just wants to be the superstar, and Joe Clarke can be so preachy and I know I'd hate him if I knew him. I think my attitude to the whole thing is to find out as much as I can and basically formulate an approach that's workable for me and the clients I do work for. So I'd take on ideas from all, really. But not follow a set mantra, because it really isn't an exact science.

But PDF's are actually a whole new ballgame in terms of accessibility and you couldn't categorise them as a non-text element requiring an alt tag, because that is really specifically for images. PDF's should be created with accessibility in mind, just like webpages are, so it's quite a big issue. Newer versions of Acrobat software come with accessibility tools built in to help you structure PDF's correctly, but I've never actually done it myself, it's on my list of Stuff Yet To Learn.

i will admit to finding it very interesting too, and having known nothing at all about accessibility a few months ago it seems a bit disgraceful now to disregard it, im just tired of dealing with it all day every day as i have been lately and trying to think up interesting and intelligent things to say about it when i have only the barest grasp on the whole concept anyway. oh well. so what/who is your favorite accessibility issue/guru?

would you say PDFs are an example of a non text element that require a text equivalent?

 

[Denny Oubidoux]

this stuff about accessibility for people with learning disabilites is a bit messy isnt it? not using complex language and all that... might see if i can ignore it for a while.

 

[krystal]

yeah, they're thick so they needen't be catered for. Wha wha.

Ah no, that really comes into the category of usability I think. Obviously there are a lot of overlaps with usability and accessibility. And some of it does have roots in very good sense as well - giving sections and links meaningful titles and not resorting to in-house jargon, and trying to understand your organisation from an outsiders point of view. All of which public sector bodies are notorious for. It will also improve quality control in the long run I think, just because you are literate doesn't mean you can write, and a lot of the stuff you read on the web is wiedly, unnecessarily long and really badly written, not to mention the grammar and typos you invariably encounter. So I'd be behind a campaign for simple english alright if it encouraged people to think about the content they're providing and trying to make that content as concise, easy to read & find and which is as meaningful as possible.

However, while that's all well and good, I've no fucking idea how you create a website that a dyslexic colour blind man with aspergers syndrome will be able to use in an equivalent fashion to any other particular grouping you might find.

this stuff about accessibility for people with learning disabilites is a bit messy isnt it? not using complex language and all that... might see if i can ignore it for a while.

 

[krystal]

Mizz Piggy:
http://alistapart.com/articles/pdf_accessibility

I should probably also read this too. But right now I'm fighting with style switchers.

 

[Denny Oubidoux]

Mizz Piggy:
http://alistapart.com/articles/pdf_accessibility

I should probably also read this too. But right now I'm fighting with style switchers.

ta, have been putting off reading it for a couple of days. as a matter of interest, do your clients let you take the time (if it takes you time) to make sure your stuff is accessible or do they mostly just want something nice looking knocked out as quick as you can manage?

 

[krystal]

most of the work I do is for the public sector and we impress on them the importance of it, so in general they're amenable because they realise it will cost them down the line if they don't do it now. You'll always get a client who refuses to listen to reason though and wants DHTML leaping menus, spinning globes etc and who will scream at you until you give them the worst site that it is possible to make.

ta, have been putting off reading it for a couple of days. as a matter of interest, do your clients let you take the time (if it takes you time) to make sure your stuff is accessible or do they mostly just want something nice looking knocked out as quick as you can manage?

 

[Denny Oubidoux]

are screen readers good at making sense of data tables even if headers havent been used or are they really important? there seems to be lots of stuff written about how you have to do things a certain way for screen readers to make sense of them but then you read more about how they can really cope with some very bad markup.

has anyone used the firefox web developer toolbar that lets you check various things about your pages? i tried the "linearize page" thing on a table thats on this page (as an example) and it put what should be the table headers one after another and then the contents of each subsequent row after that and it didnt particularly look like it made sense anymore. is that tool a good way of telling if a page makes sense when linearised?

 

[krystal]

I actually don't use it, but you know what's a great tool for making sure your page will degrade properly? Turning OFF styles in Firefox. Go to view > page style > no style. Now see if everything linerizes down the page - is the header first, the navigation following, the content after that etc? It doesn't have to LOOK pretty, it just has to make seqential sense, do you see what I mean?

And I would think it's very important to take the time to mark up tables properly, yes. Think about how the data will get read out, and really only use tables for data if you absolutely have to. The hangup people have about them is the provide a nice graphic design feel to a webpage but web pages are not DTP documents, nor are they word documents. So you do have to take a different approach. If you can provide the same info using paragraphs and headings, or using a bulleted list, then do it that way instead.

are screen readers good at making sense of data tables even if headers havent been used or are they really important? there seems to be lots of stuff written about how you have to do things a certain way for screen readers to make sense of them but then you read more about how they can really cope with some very bad markup.

has anyone used the firefox web developer toolbar that lets you check various things about your pages? i tried the "linearize page" thing on a table thats on this page (as an example) and it put what should be the table headers one after another and then the contents of each subsequent row after that and it didnt particularly look like it made sense anymore. is that tool a good way of telling if a page makes sense when linearised?

 

[taubstumm]

are screen readers good at making sense of data tables even if headers havent been used or are they really important?

generally, yes, though it depends on the screen reader and the table. table headers are only necessary if the table you're putting data into requires headers in order to be logically understood. if the contents of a table can be understood by the context of the table then headers aren't necessarily needed. having said that, they're generally good to have there regardless.

there seems to be lots of stuff written about how you have to do things a certain way for screen readers to make sense of them but then you read more about how they can really cope with some very bad markup.

screen readers can cope with a certain amount of crappy markup, but then it's in the interests of the screen reader companies to ensure that they can. it shouldn't be an excuse for not having valid, well-formed, well-structured code to begin with.

bear in mind that the biggest 'blind user' of your site is search engines - google spider bots essentially go through your site in the same manner that a screen reader would. so well-formed code = instant s.e.o.

has anyone used the firefox web developer toolbar that lets you check various things about your pages?

yeah, i use it all the time. i'd actually be lost without it. there's a version for internet explorer as well.

i tried the "linearize page" thing on a table thats on this page (as an example) and it put what should be the table headers one after another and then the contents of each subsequent row after that and it didnt particularly look like it made sense anymore. is that tool a good way of telling if a page makes sense when linearised?

yeah, it's showing you what the site will look like once it's been linearised. if it makes sense, good stuff. another good test is to tab through the site - don't use a mouse - and see if you can easily get from section to section.






edit: what kirstie said. beaten to the punch!

 

[krystal]

Ah, the joys of accessibility.

what you working on now, Tom?

 

[taubstumm]

Ah, the joys of accessibility.

what you working on now, Tom?

the same site i was working on the last time you asked! it's a biggie. plus about nine million other things. i fucking hate project management. spend your time on the phone when you should be making all your kickass designs...

oh and right now this minute i'm using definition lists to make a sitemap. mmm, well-formed semantic markup, good for you. like fibre.

agus tusa?

 

[krystal]

about 40 thousand things. Waaahh. I had a fight with some chinese language stuff most recently, now I think I'll go for lunch and when I come back I have to work on a site for a just about to be launched multimedia extravaganza visitor experience centre thing. Plus my own massive current project.

the same site i was working on the last time you asked! it's a biggie. plus about nine million other things. i fucking hate project management. spend your time on the phone when you should be making all your kickass designs...

oh and right now this minute i'm using definition lists to make a sitemap. mmm, well-formed semantic markup, good for you. like fibre.

agus tusa?

 

[krystal]

by the way.

you don't know of anyone looking for a couple of months work do you? It'll be a C&P job mostly but they have have a good working knowledge of the WCAG guidelines in relation to content.

 

[taubstumm]

by the way.

you don't know of anyone looking for a couple of months work do you? It'll be a C&P job mostly but they have have a good working knowledge of the WCAG guidelines in relation to content.

not off the top of my head, though i'm sure if you put it up on creative ireland they'll jump at it, in a manner not unlike those pirhanas attacking that redhead in that james bond film.

or maybe miss piggy could do it, and learn all about the joys of web standards in the process.

 

[krystal]

yeah. that's the next port of call. I'd like someone on a recommendation ideally but if that's not possible then we'll have to look further afield.

not off the top of my head, though i'm sure if you put it up on creative ireland they'll jump at it, in a manner not unlike those pirhanas attacking that redhead in that james bond film.

or maybe miss piggy could do it, and learn all about the joys of web standards in the process.

 

[Denny Oubidoux]

where would I be without you lot! (.|..| )

can search engines still search sites that use scripts to get content from a database then?

and is using relative property values less important now that browsers can zoom text even if its marked up with font tags and absolute values?

see yiz...

 

[krystal]

well IE still can't resize fixed sized text, so if you specify that something is 12px, then it stays 12px, and unfortunately most people still use it. Plus it's no hassles to use ems or percentages.

I'm not too sure about your search related queries, sorry.

where would I be without you lot! (.|..| )

can search engines still search sites that use scripts to get content from a database then?

and is using relative property values less important now that browsers can zoom text even if its marked up with font tags and absolute values?

see yiz...

 

[Denny Oubidoux]

well IE still can't resize fixed sized text, so if you specify that something is 12px, then it stays 12px, and unfortunately most people still use it. Plus it's no hassles to use ems or percentages.

I'm not too sure about your search related queries, sorry.

thanks, i keep forgetting about IE, confound it. the "text size- larger/largest" thing does work on fixed sizes in IE but its more limited.

im just dissing other peoples hard work with all this stuff and not actually trying to build an accessible site myself thank god.

i was only wondering about the search stuff as Tom mentioned the robots earlier.