What the ?? (1 Viewer)

[avernus]

 

[Bill Shatner]

I understand the reasoning people had dfor doing it back in 77, just to get a reaction like, chaos n' all.
I'm in work right now with a girl who is from the former east germany and she found it extremely distasteful. a swastika isn't a fuckin fashion statement its bollox

Just wondering now, but does yr east german friend understand that it was done and why, back in 77?

I ain't condoning nuttin', mind...

 

[spuded]

Just wondering now, but does yr east german friend understand that it was done and why, back in 77?

I ain't condoning nuttin', mind...

no i imagine she wouldn't but i wasn't trying to okay what happened back in 1977, i was just saying it was a different time when punk was a very different thing than i think it is now, . It was a reaction against everything, then the eighties happened, piece punk and trying to actually build an alternative instead of just being reactionary idiots. fuck if anything i was trying to water down my argument so it didn't seem so aggro!

Anyway i'm after working a night shift, its nearly half seven in the fuckin morning, and this thread has gone on so long. I wasn't trying to be holier tha thou, because i'm hardly a saint, i just didn't like to read that people were being told to stop freaking out and that they were being 'dramatic' because they took offence or even chose to question the use of a swastika.

i'm gonan go listen to some MAYHEM now, fuck you guys!.|..|

 

[Denver Max]

i cant actually beleive this argument is happening......im beginning to wonder if macwarzonescum and others are just arguing for the sake of it....


it is extremely insensitive to parade around in a nazi uniform...regardless of the context...the fact that someone could dispute that is ludicrous....no one is condemning yakuza just saying it was a stupid idea.

Oh, and im getting sick of people deciding that a punks opinion is worthless because he/she has many of them. This is not a problem or a joke.

These people chose to educate themselves rather than be cynical or apathetic.

FUCK. OFF.

and also mr 'italkshite' why didn't you approach eric at the gig and call him 'self-righteous', rather than being a wuss and sayin it online a couple of days later?

exactly.

 

[ITalkShite]

Christ, I'm glad I went to bed.

I dreamed about nazi midgets. Fo' serious.

 

[ITalkShite]

Ha ha, someone docked me punk points and sait "eat shit, dickbrain" for one of my posts. Classic.

 

[ITalkShite]

Okay, I went back and read everything.

Now, I'm just trying to extrapolate some consistent principles out of Spuded's posturing.

They seem to run like this:

- It was ok to dress as a Nazi in 1977
- It's really bad to dress as a Nazi now
- Nobody ever understands any context, even at a Halloween party

So presumably people understood context better in 1977?

 

[SONYMEGADRIVE]

why didn't he say anything to eric? cos running up to someone after a gig giving them shit is just rude / completely unnecessary for both parties. making a glib comment on the internet is par for the course at this stage. i wouldn't get the two confused.

anyway, you guys is tripppin.
it was a halloween gig (or fancy dress, if you wanna be pedantic about it being on a friday and halloween being on a sunday) and they wore dumb (to me, in the sense that it's the most duhbvious costume ever) outfits. there was nothing offensive about their performance and you'd have to be mentally deficient to think there was.

here's a picture of boyd rice wearing a t-srhit that says rape and a swastika around his neck:

try not to get too worked up.

andrew

 

[jmlcomp]

ask yourselves this......
would you of worn it????
and if not why not???

 

[SONYMEGADRIVE]

no because i can come up with far more offensive things than that

andrew

 

[CITY BABY]

im pretty sure we did beat the germans in a friendly 6 or 7 years ago gary kelly scored ,could be completely wrong

 

[ronan yakuza]

Hello, that’s me in the photo.

Fist off I’ll say I’m very sorry if you were disgusted and/or offended this wasn’t the intention. I did get one email afterwards from the friend Hag mentioned. I apologised to him and asked him to pass that on to his girlfriend, and we left it politely and on quite amicable terms

So it was a Halloween gig, Ok so it was 2 days before Halloween but it was a Halloween gig, and we had no costumes organised, thinking what a pity it would be to not dress up, this idea popped into our heads and we knocked them together in half an hour. We thought to ourselves, and asked our friends, who are not all white men, stupid as it seems to have to bring that up, if they thought it was too much, they thought it was funny and I decided I wouldn’t be offended myself if I saw someone else dressed such. We weren’t thinking “this will get us noticed and shock people” we were thinking the symbols meaning had been disarmed and people have been desensitised to the symbol since the 70s and this will at worst be seen as bad taste and at best laughed at/ignored. This is why were not seen at the gig to be overtly lampooning the swastika. We didn’t know there was a jewish centre in the area and didn’t go wandering around outside as we knew only people coming inside the venue should (or shouldn’t it seems) expect to see anything like this.

“I understand the reasoning people had for doing it back in 77, just to get a reaction like,”

Sorry but I just don’t understand you at all here, I seem to be getting a reaction right now, whether or not that was my intention. The only difference I can see is that you (possibly, I’m guessing) & I weren’t active in music in 77 and since we can only look back in hindsight, can only see it from one side. What happened when the first person wearing the symbol was seen in public in 77, did the public understand they were just trying to “cause chaos” then? Did this very argument happen then? Were the viewers of the Bill Grundy show made to understand beforehand that Siouxsie Sioux was not actually a nazi? If you’re gonna condemn me for doing this then condemn all for doing it, no double standards.

Some of you think I’m trying to be a sensationalist attention seeker, some of you think an insensitive monster, some think I’ve tried and failed to be shocking and offensive. I think you are all creating this chaos and controversy yourselves no matter what you think of me. It would’ve probably served everyone better if you’d have contacted me via email to send hate-mail, yawns, threats, advice or whatever, unless of course you think something positive can be gleaned from this discussion…

I’ll just suggest that if the swastika is seen by non-nazis and doesn’t shock as much as it once did then it ceases to have the power it once had as a symbol to strike fear, it was after all just taken from history and given a new meaning, why can’t that meaning be taken away again.

In closing I understand that it could have been seen as insensitive and we are sorry if you were offended, it was not intended this way it is just a badly made, stupid, costume that I’ll not be wearing again.

 

[Shorty]

I'm busy trying to figure out how to take away your ability to use any of the emoticon things. Jesus.

Can you not just edit my post to remove them? If that will make you happy ...

 

[mac warzonescum]

Sorry but I just don’t understand you at all here, I seem to be getting a reaction right now, whether or not that was my intention. The only difference I can see is that you (possibly, I’m guessing) & I weren’t active in music in 77 and since we can only look back in hindsight, can only see it from one side. What happened when the first person wearing the symbol was seen in public in 77, did the public understand they were just trying to “cause chaos” then? Did this very argument happen then? Were the viewers of the Bill Grundy show made to understand beforehand that Siouxsie Sioux was not actually a nazi? If you’re gonna condemn me for doing this then condemn all for doing it, no double standards.

Lets not forget that the Swastika, Iron Cross and other Nazi regalia had been adopted by bikers and Hells Angels long before this, so it is not like they had been absent in youth culture since the days of '45.

I’ll just suggest that if the swastika is seen by non-nazis and doesn’t shock as much as it once did then it ceases to have the power it once had as a symbol to strike fear, it was after all just taken from history and given a new meaning, why can’t that meaning be taken away again.

Nail on the head.

 

[jmlcomp]

well mainland europe are taking the opposite tack and banning the symbol outright because for the most part they WANT the symbol to retain it's connatations, they have no intention of letting it be watered down......
read all the fuss in die welt, le monde about prince harry wearing same outfit, note those are the only papers that i read columns from about said incident.....
it serves as a totem for rememberance so that we are reminded of the horrors that man is capable of......
and in that respect i 100% agree....
as for wearing it at halloween imagine imagine if you were out for a smoke and a black african couple came up walking past you....do you think they would get the joke????

 

[mac warzonescum]

well mainland europe are taking the opposite tack and banning the symbol outright because for the most part they WANT the symbol to retain it's connatations, they have no intention of letting it be watered down......

In my opinion this is insane - creating a totem of ultimate evil out of the Swastika and acting so as to reinforce that view. What was so special about Nazism that it requires this kind of treatment?

 

[mac warzonescum]

as for wearing it at halloween imagine imagine if you were out for a smoke and a black african couple came up walking past you....do you think they would get the joke????

We didn’t know there was a jewish centre in the area and didn’t go wandering around outside as we knew only people coming inside the venue should (or shouldn’t it seems) expect to see anything like this.

Does that not render the question redundant? Aside from asking why a 'black african couple' should have any less of an understanding of the situation than any other couple.

 

[ronan yakuza]

as for wearing it at halloween imagine imagine if you were out for a smoke and a black african couple came up walking past you....do you think they would get the joke????

Of course, I see what you mean but one of the friends who helped us make the costumes was a black friend of ours..
If that'd have happened, I'd have taken a kicking and understood it, thought I was very careful to make sure it didn't
Also, I think it's quite shocking and distressing that people would need a symbol to remind them what humans are capable of

 

[SONYMEGADRIVE]

oh yeah - just incase anyone doesn't know who boyd rice is, he's buds/musical collaborator with michael moynahan who wrote 'lords of chaos'
one of those feral house peeps
MM is really sketch too.
burn all your feral house books. actually, i think willy has some feral house stuff in stock, someone should trash that place

andrew

 

[snap-apple]

it serves as a totem for rememberance so that we are reminded of the horrors that man is capable of......
and in that respect i 100% agree....

i don't. i think it would be far more positive for the whole world if the swastika could regain it's original meanings so that when someone saw it they thought of something positive instead of something negative. it's not like anyone's ever going to forget what happened in ww2.

i saw some report on tv that was saying some buddhist temple or other would have to stop using the symbol if the ban went through. them buddhists are a real nasty sort.

as far as yakuza go, i think they was a little silly to do it, personally i wouldn't have been that offended but i can understand the negative reactions of some folk and i wouldn't have got on stage dressed like that unless i wanted to provoke a reaction. the boyz should have just dressed up as soldiers and had done with it if all they wanted to do was play in fancy dress.