RAG Party this Sat 10th Nov (1 Viewer)

[Corm]

As different as all the races of the world.
Again with a slight change: How we are as *differing* humans is a physical fact.
How we treat each other in regards to this fact is something taught to us by society.

Okay, I mistook that you thought gender roles were entirely socially constructed, rather than partially so. I agree that the majority of gender behaviour is a result of socialisation. Except for me. I only discriminate against people by criteria of stupidity and ugliness.

 

[São Paulo Punk]

Okay, I mistook that you thought gender roles were entirely socially constructed, rather than partially so. I agree that the majority of gender behaviour is a result of socialisation. Except for me. I only discriminate against people by criteria of stupidity and ugliness.

And whether they're Punk or not.

 

[spuded]

Specifics please. (Non-gender exclusive and litigation free, naturally).

get me drunk and i'll tell you! did once know a guy who was too lazy to use tissues after masturbation so just spunked on the wall

tut tut

 

[nofunchee]

Dunchee: You're right, science does a great job of explaining things away - like bullshit. (Yeeeeooooow!) Gender is not a social construct, it's genetic. Society can shape modern gender expectations, but ultimately gender difference (and the fundaments of gender roles) lie in subtly different brain structure as well as the effect of hormones. Please don't tell me people don't believe in hormones too!

There's a classic controversial example of different brain structure between the sexes. A male brain is, typically, larger than a female brain and that body size difference does not account for this discrepancy (Look it up, fact fans - Pakkenburg and Gundersen 97, I think). Obviously I'm not trying to suggest that this makes men brainier! These structural differences are the essence of who we are. The brain is a very misunderstood thing and ignoring science doesn't help anybody. Science can tell us all more about ourselves and the world around is in cold hard facts. It's like spiritualism with maths!

i'm not ignoring science or denying the existence of hormones. i'm problematising the act of overstating scientific facts.

you're not giving me any info on how biological gender difference dictates gender roles in society. you say gender roles are determined by biology/nature/evolution or whatever, but how can you account for the complexities of social behaviour? customs, traditions, and norms can be based as much around misconceptions of scientific 'facts' and a belief in pseudosciences, as well researched scientific understandings. in other words, those realities have been constructed. they may be loosely hung on facts of biological difference but i find it hard to see how you could account for the details of belief systems (and the roles and assumptions they create) when you are just focusing on the existence of boobs, willies, gees, hormones, and differences in brain size.

surely the point of science is to give us a snapshot of where our understanding on these issues is at a certain place in time, most scientific experiment is based around trying to disprove what has gone before it. But surely the basis of science and therein social science and the findings of such give us a far more logical understanding of things than simple philosophical pondering.

I agree that environment and religion and millions of other factors make people who they are but there are basic hormonal and neurological differences between the sexes make ups. people seem to freak out at the concept of this, that difference somehow means better or worse but it doesn't.

yeah, there are basic biological differences but what social constructivists get freaked out about are ideological leaps of faith that start at recognising those biological differences and end up with "women are like this, men are like this".

it's hard to ignore the development of ideas, beliefs, and understandings over time. what we can understand of the biological make up of men and women can only give us partial insights. to get a better understanding you have to be a bit more holistic i reckon.

 

[the strange guy]

you're not giving me any info on how biological gender difference dictates gender roles in society. you say gender roles are determined by biology/nature/evolution or whatever, but how can you account for the complexities of social behaviour?

Social behaviour between sexes has its roots in the differences between the ways men and women think which is an effect of their differing brain structure and physiology. These behaviours develop, evolve and mutate into what we can recognise as traditions and gender roles which differ in from culture to culture. The male and female experience are fundamentally different and there is no 'blank slate' upon which a gender map is overlaid.

Like you said, these traditions and roles are constructed, but they aren't artificial. Gender roles like 'Man goes to work; Woman minds the kids.' are as old as humanity. These roles aren't all purposeless or the repeat of a mistake committed millennia ago... but I'm not attempting to state that this is morally right. These roles and identities come in a million forms but they should not all be dismissed as a byproduct of media or 'the system'. Whatever function they did have has been negated by technology and education.

It's natural for humans to categorise, it's what we do best, it's the first thing we learn. This is just another form of categorisation. 'I am this, You are that'. The ability to perform a role and knowing what is required or expected of us is also a huge part of what we are. 'This is what I should do, That is what you should do'. Being able to understand what another person is doing or what their role is is vital to comprehending a social network. If we couldn't do this then we couldn't tell friend from foe, we'd all become very lonely and be stuck fending for ourselves on Eirecore on a Saturday night.

 

[Janer]

Fuck this upper class educated thread...look u cubts I have delib spelt cubts wrong...now fuck off/....

 

[the strange guy]

We've been rumbled lads.
The game's up.
Save yourselves.
I'm off.

 

[Janer]

Go Stevie go!

 

[Willie Willions]

Fuck this upper class educated thread...look u cubts I have delib spelt cubts wrong...now fuck off/....

Ah! Suddenly it all makes sense...

 

[São Paulo Punk]

Like you said, these traditions and roles are constructed, but they aren't artificial. Gender roles like 'Man goes to work; Woman minds the kids.' are as old as humanity. These roles aren't all purposeless or the repeat of a mistake committed millennia ago... but I'm not attempting to state that this is morally right. These roles and identities come in a million forms but they should not all be dismissed as a byproduct of media or 'the system'. Whatever function they did have has been negated by technology and education.

But pre-industrial societies had different conceptions of what 'work' meant. i.e. everyone worked the land, man,woman and child, grannies n'all... It was Victorian moralism that shunned women from working, or at least those with enough money who didnt necessarily need to. And in any case, work in the home, because it didnt create wages or wealth in the same obvious way that a pay check did, created an imbalance between the two. In fact, it actually created a serparation between the home sphere and the working sphere, whereas prior to the big move into the cities to start working 'n fact'ry, this separation didnt exist.

This is only really relevant to Britain and Europe, but even in Inca societies the organisation of social life prior to colonisation was a lot more equal, not just in terms of gender but also to do with land, and probably fairly importantly, the absense of the notion of 'private property'. Im not saying that it was equal as fuck, but a lot closer than say contemporary Irish society.

I know that you cant ignore the scientific side, but I think that the socially constructed environments that we live in have a huge impact on how we think in comparison with the biological stuff going on inside our heads. Something like 95% social, 5% biological.

 

[the strange guy]

Owensie,
If you are reading this, it means that I escaped this prison camp last night.
I had built a hybrid motorbike which can also run on biofuel and good vibrations.
I'm sorry for not letting you in on my plan, but it's the only way I could get out.
I hope you understand.
I'll be waiting for you on the outside.

Yours in freedom,
Oly McQueen

 

[D0njo]

Oly is trumped.

I'm gonna get a motorbike too!