Palestine (3 Viewers)

[Cryptid]

You have one of the richest countries in the world; Right beside one of the poorest; And the state of the rich county is subjugating the entire population of the poor country; Although some people in the poor country are doing a number of acts of terrorism against the rich country.

These are all facts, not propaganda. Naturally peoples' sympathies are going to lie more with the latter.

 

[Janer]

the fact that Hamas is weaker does not make it morally superior to Israel.

This is not just about Hamas, Fatah in the West Bank is treated the same way by the IDF too, in fact people would say it's worse as the land has regularly being stolen and occupied by settlers and also with the checkpoints that the IDF have set up it is impossible for a normal life and to sell their products.
The Israeli just come out well on US/British media ( maybe not the BBC) who between them make the Israelis look smooth and westernised while the Palestinians always seem to come out less well with their broken English, they need a Max Clifford!

 

[Janer]

Maybe all the pro Israeli apologists are correct!
Another One Israeli died overnight and this time Only 51 Palestinians were killed!! Israel has a humane side after all! Progress FTW!!

 

[the strange guy]

I am not an Israeli apologist Janer. I'm disgusted by the number
of people, in Ireland especially, who root for the underdog - even
when they murder children. A bloody attrocity is quickly
reclassified as an 'act of defiance'. A school massacre is
'inevitable', a suicide bomb 'their only means of fighting back'.
People's sympathies are going to lie with those who are poor and
murder instead of those who are rich and murder? And when
these plans involve killing civilians instead of military targets
there is no other word for it than murder. Both sides are cunts.
Both sides are evil. It's normal people who get caught up. There are
folks here who will still wave flags and still take sides in spite of
the facts. So who is the apologist?

 

[Cryptid]

I don't think that anyone is arguing that the state of Israel and the terrorists aren't total cunts. I'm not anyway. It's the degrees of aggression and the types of aggression used that I have a problem with. And you're right, the real tragedy is the people who are caught up. It just seems to me that there's a lot more of those on the Palestinian side.

 

[Janer]

I am not an Israeli apologist Janer.

Wasn't aimed at you, I am posting on boards.ie's political forum and basically I was too lazy to rewrite it all for here so I plaguerized my own work!

Here is all 22 pages of it.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055448726
Note the title of the thread.

 

[Janer]

I'm disgusted by the number
of people, in Ireland especially, who root for the underdog - even
when they murder children. A bloody attrocity is quickly
reclassified as an 'act of defiance'. A school massacre is
'inevitable', a suicide bomb 'their only means of fighting back'.
People's sympathies are going to lie with those who are poor and
murder instead of those who are rich and murder? And when
these plans involve killing civilians instead of military targets
there is no other word for it than murder. Both sides are cunts.
Both sides are evil.

See we're back to the same basic argument, what are the Palestinians supposed to do?
Even if Hamas or Fatah rolled over backwards the Israelis would still confiscate their land, still build settlements and still oppress....Israel wants a greater land, period.
Being far stonger helps in this situations now doesn't it?

 

[the strange guy]

I don't think that anyone is arguing that the state of Israel and the terrorists aren't total cunts. I'm not anyway. It's the degrees of aggression and the types of aggression used that I have a problem with. And you're right, the real tragedy is the people who are caught up. It just seems to me that there's a lot more of those on the Palestinian side.

I absolutely agree, the number of victims are much greater on
the Palestinian side. But this conflict affects the daily life of both
sides. There is a culture of fear and distrust in Israel. As soon as
they finish school, people are sent to the army for three to four
years and then give a month's service every year until they are
40. This conflict has completely and utterly become entrenched
in their culture and way of life. There is absolutely no hope for
peace in the region until this war culture is eradicated. Each
Israeli sees themselves as a citizen and a soldier and it's this
mentality that drives the conflict but is also incredibly hard to
understand when you come from a completely different culture.
I've never met a Palestinian soldier so can't say if this is also
true there, but I suspect there is little difference.

See we're back to the same basic argument, what are the Palestinians supposed to do?

I'd say the least they could do is take children off the list of
legitimate targets. Maybe then Israel wouldn't hit them as
hard. War is never legitimate, but deliberately going for
soft targets is inexcusable.

 

[Janer]

I absolutely agree, the number of victims are much greater on
the Palestinian side. But this conflict affects the daily life of both
sides. There is a culture of fear and distrust in Israel. As soon as
they finish school, people are sent to the army for three to four
years and then give a month's service every year until they are
40. This conflict has completely and utterly become entrenched
in their culture and way of life. There is absolutely no hope for
peace in the region until this war culture is eradicated. Each
Israeli sees themselves as a citizen and a soldier and it's this
mentality that drives the conflict but is also incredibly hard to
understand when you come from a completely different culture.
I've never met a Palestinian soldier so can't say if this is also
true there, but I suspect there is little difference.


I'd say the least they could do is take children off the list of
legitimate targets. Maybe then Israel wouldn't hit them as
hard. War is never legitimate, but deliberately going for
soft targets is inexcusable.

Saudi Arabia the most respected Arab country amongst the Americans and Israeli's offered a permanent peace for land plan a few years back, Israel of course rejected it.
They go on about security and peace, which this plan promised but it's land they want, A greater Israel, The reason they won't hand back the Golan heights to Syria is not just because of the security issues but because of the water running through it.

 

[Janer]

I'd say the least they could do is take children off the list of
legitimate targets. Maybe then Israel wouldn't hit them as
hard. War is never legitimate, but deliberately going for
soft targets is inexcusable.

They haven't got the weaponary for 'precision' type stuff.
Israel killed another rock thrower yesterday btw.

 

[Janer]

War is never legitimate, but deliberately going for
soft targets is inexcusable.

I'm sure they'd prefer an IDF personal than a child but again it comes down to weaponary.

 

[Cryptid]

I absolutely agree, the number of victims are much greater on
the Palestinian side. But this conflict affects the daily life of both
sides. There is a culture of fear and distrust in Israel. As soon as
they finish school, people are sent to the army for three to four
years and then give a month's service every year until they are
40. This conflict has completely and utterly become entrenched
in their culture and way of life. There is absolutely no hope for
peace in the region until this war culture is eradicated. Each
Israeli sees themselves as a citizen and a soldier and it's this
mentality that drives the conflict but is also incredibly hard to
understand when you come from a completely different culture.
I've never met a Palestinian soldier so can't say if this is also
true there, but I suspect there is little difference.

Totally agree with you there.

I'd say the least they could do is take children off the list of
legitimate targets. Maybe then Israel wouldn't hit them as
hard. War is never legitimate, but deliberately going for
soft targets is inexcusable.

I doubt anything (bar your first point and other long term stuff like economically integrating Israel into the region) would stop the Israelis from bombing villages etc., but out of decency, yes they should restrict themselves to non-civilian targets (if that). It was the worst aspect of the troubles in the north - hearing about civilians getting shot etc. by the 'ra.

 

[Janer]

but out of decency, yes they should restrict themselves to non-civilian targets.

It never happens in conflicts alas.

It was the worst aspect of the troubles in the north - hearing about civilians getting shot etc. by the 'ra.

I would have said it was just as bad hearing about the loyalists shooting innocent catholics.
The IRA were far more successful killing the Loyalist paramilitaries than vice versa.

 

[Cryptid]

I would have said it was just as bad hearing about the loyalists shooting innocent catholics.
The IRA were far more successful killing the Loyalist paramilitaries than vice versa.

Yes, but the IRA tended to be a lot more active, especially towards the end of the troubles than the other other lunatics, or so I recall.

 

[Cryptid]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7802515.stm

Page last updated at 14:16 GMT, Monday, 29 December 2008

Israel strikes key Hamas offices

(video here)

Aftermath of a third day of attacks on targets in Gaza

Israeli air raids have pounded the Gaza Strip for a third day, hitting key sites linked to militant group Hamas.
Gaza's interior ministry and Islamic University were the latest targets.
Hamas says 300 Palestinians have died since Saturday, while the UN says 56 civilians are dead. In Israel, a second person was killed by a militant rocket.
Defence Minister Ehud Barak said Israel was not fighting the people of Gaza but was in "a war to the bitter end" with Hamas, which has ruled it since 2007.
Israel has massed forces along the border and has declared the area around the narrow coastal strip a "closed military zone".

GAZA CAMPAIGN DEATHS
312 - Official Gaza toll (source: Hamas)
56 civilians in Gaza (source: UN, hospitals)
2 civilians in Israel (source: Israel police)

Are Israel's war aims achievable?
Israel looks for knockout blow
In pictures: Third day of raids

Correspondents say the move - in addition to the call-up of thousands of reservists - could be a prelude to ground operations, but could also be intended to build pressure on Hamas.
BBC analyst Jonathan Marcus says the 6,500 reservists called up would be insufficient for a knock-out blow against Hamas, which would require nothing less than the re-occupation of the Gaza Strip.
Dozens of centres of Hamas strength, including security compounds, government offices and tunnels into Egypt, have been hit since Israel started its massive bombing campaign on Saturday morning.
As dawn broke on Monday, witnesses said a powerful explosion struck the interior ministry.
Earlier, a raid destroyed a science building at the Islamic University in Gaza - a centre of support for the Islamist militant group that controls the narrow coastal strip. Many top Hamas officials graduated from there.
Also hit was a house near the abandoned home of a senior Hamas leader in the southern town of Rafah.
The UN relief agency in Gaza says 56 civilians have been killed by Israeli fire so far, the latest being five girls who died in Jabaliya refugee camp when Israeli forces bombed a mosque near their home.

See detailed map of attacks
The head of the emergency services in the Hamas-run coastal strip said that 312 Palestinians had been killed in all, and more than 1,400 others wounded.
The latest fatality in Israel was reported to be a labourer at a building site in the city of Ashkelon, that was hit by a medium-range Grad missile. Three people were reported seriously wounded.
'Changing realities'
A Palestinian doctor in Gaza has told the BBC nearly all the casualties he had seen overnight and on Monday had been civilians.
He said the hospital where he worked had converted ordinary rooms into intensive care units to cope with the number of wounded and essential medical supplies were running out.

Israelis in nearby towns have faced an escalated militant rocket threat

Grief and fear in Gaza
Aid worker diary: Gaza raids
Rocket attacks plague Israeli towns

The Israeli action has sparked anger across the Arab world. Protests have been held in countries including Syria, Jordan, Iraq and Lebanon, as well as in a number of European capitals.
At the UN, the Security Council joined international calls for restraint by urging an end to all violence between Israel and Gaza.
The US, Israel's strongest ally on the council, said the onus was on Hamas to stop rocket fire first and commit itself to a truce.
Israel says Palestinian militants have fired more than 110 rockets from the coast territory since Saturday.
The strikes began on Saturday less than a week after the expiry of a six-month-long ceasefire deal with Hamas.
Mr Barak told a special parliamentary session that Israel was "taking all precautions" to avoid harming Palestinian civilians, but blamed militants for intentionally hiding in the civilian population.
His statement and Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni's statement on Sunday about "changing realities on the ground" in Gaza have fuelled speculation of a sustained Israeli bombing campaign.
Analysts said Saturday was the single deadliest day in Gaza since Israel's occupation of the territory in 1967, although no independent confirmation is available of the numbers killed.
The violence began days after a six-month truce expired between Israel and Hamas, and as Israel was preparing for a general election in February.
The exiled leader of Hamas, Khaled Meshaal, has called for a new intifada, or uprising, against Israel, while the movement's Gaza leader, Ismail Haniya, called the attack an "ugly massacre".
Attacks over the Gaza-Israel border regularly put the truce under strain with both sides blaming each other for unprovoked violations.
From 1967 Israel's military occupied the Gaza Strip and Jewish settlers built communities within the territory. Israel withdrew in 2005 but has kept tight control over access in and out of Gaza and its airspace.

 

[Janer]

Yes, but the IRA tended to be a lot more active, especially towards the end of the troubles than the other other lunatics, or so I recall.

Would have to disagree, near the end of the campaign the IRA went after targets that caused massive financial damage rather than persons, one of the bombs on London's financial centre cost 1 billion sterling (colossal amounts back then) the last major fuck up the IRA committed upon innocent Loyalists was the Shankill fish shop bomb when they went for the UDA leadership.

 

[Janer]

Yeah BB read that this morning, I think after their initial success' on catching so many Hamas personal in their bases that they now fancy the land job, it seems they've learned a bit from the Lebanon fiasco.
On one hand it is not necc a bad thing if Hamas are removed because than the ball is back in Israels court to start moving the peace process forward, although they will find another excuse no doubt.
Hope I'm wrong.

 

[robitusson]

The Israelis are not interested in accommodating the indigenous people in the area. They're interested in securing and settling on the land they do have, and also the fertile and strategically important areas of the West Bank. The people who live there are as important to the Israelis as the Australian aborigines were to European settlers 200 years ago i.e. a nuisance on "their" land.

The best the Palestinians can hope for is that Israel doesn't leave them with absolutely nothing or completely leave them destitute. A stage slightly below where they are at right now in other words.

It's al very well to moralise over each side being equally responsible but when your very survival is at stake then violence is inevitable. One side's situation in the area is extremely secure and comfortable, the other's is completely uncertain and unstable. One side is fighting for survival, the other's fighting for colonisation. Israel has by far the most powerful army in the region. No one can fuck with them militarily. They also have the most powerful ally in the world. The other side has a tiny strip of land surrounded by that military. They don't have enough basics to ensure their own survival. They live in constant humiliation, poverty and violence. Yet somehow they're equally culpable for what's going on. Doesn't add up.
Ireland's culture of supporting underdogs is hardly relevant to the people there who are being wiped out culturally, nationally and literally.

 

[Cryptid]

Nuke the whole area and start again?

 

[robitusson]

That's Israel's "Samson plan", isn't it? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samson_Option