Palestine (3 Viewers)

[robitusson]

I was responding to the idea there was some sort of comparison between the two sides. Not an idea I introduced into the thread myself.

 

[Janer]

Indiscriminate you say Oly? Only because they haven't got the money for better weapons to try and take the IDF on a more level footing.
How else should they fight back? Or are they just better off doing nothing?
No electricity, no jobs, 80% of people with no jobs, never allowed out of your "country" being picked off by IDF forces, regular incursions, houses demolished.
And of course you can be anti war but yet still sympathise with one side if you feel they are totally being oppressed and their land stolen from them.

 

[robitusson]

Stealing land, keeping people in an open air jail, stateless, under apartheid systems, and colonisation are basically acts of war anyway.

 

[the strange guy]

Indiscriminate you say Oly? Only because they haven't got the money for better weapons to try and take the IDF on a more level footing.
How else should they fight back? Or are they just better off doing nothing?
No electricity, no jobs, 80% of people with no jobs, never allowed out of your "country" being picked off by IDF forces, regular incursions, houses demolished.
And of course you can be anti war but yet still sympathise with one side if you feel they are totally being oppressed and their land stolen from them.

You're right. Blowing yourself up on buses filled with
school kids is how they should fight back. It's not a
warcrime when you're forced to use murderous ingenuity
because of poverty. They deserve your sympathy.

No. Bollocks. Both sides are murdering cunts. Both sides
perpetuate this war. Same fucking story, big men on top
making decisions and little guys doing the dirty work while
everyone else around them suffers and dies.

If you can find romance and inspiration in the middle of this,
fair play to you. I can't. All I see is death,
propaganda and misery on both sides.

It's easy to be passionate about a war that doesn't affect you.
I'm sure everyone here has experienced someone from outside
Northern Ireland trying to explain their feelings on the Troubles.
Nine times out of ten they're talking out of their arse. The shit
talk gets worse the further away they're from, especially if they're
from the States! I don't see how this is any different.

 

[Janer]

You're right. Blowing yourself up on buses filled with
school kids is how they should fight back. It's not a
warcrime when you're forced to use murderous ingenuity
because of poverty. They deserve your sympathy.

And there was no progress made since this? Was there not the 6 month ceasefire? that Israel made no genuine effort to lighten the loads of the Palestinian people, come to think of it I can only think of 1 suicide bombing in the last few years in turn I think the IDF has killed hundreds if not thousands since the peak of the suicide bombs of '02

No. Bollocks. Both sides are murdering cunts. Both sides
perpetuate this war. Same fucking story, big men on top
making decisions and little guys doing the dirty work while
everyone else around them suffers and dies.

Alas thats the way its always been...every conflict every generation, I admit its such a waste.

If you can find romance and inspiration in the middle of this,
fair play to you. I can't. All I see is death,
propaganda and misery on both sides.

What I see is one superior US backed side totally annihallating a weaker people.

It's easy to be passionate about a war that doesn't affect you.
I'm sure everyone here has experienced someone from outside
Northern Ireland trying to explain their feelings on the Troubles.
Nine times out of ten they're talking out of their arse. I don't
see how this is any different.

So many people throw this around, because it happens in a "far away" land it doesn't mean we should close our eyes.

 

[Janer]

In the previous post of mine I also left out the 10 thousand Palestinian prisoners held in Israeli jails, most held without charge and some who have being detained for over 10 years in totally cramped styles with up to a dozen to a small cell. no release date is a nightmare, especially after numerous years being incarcerated.....

 

[the strange guy]

What I see is one superior US backed side totally annihallating a weaker people.

Hamas' aim is the annihilation of Israel. This was my
original point. Annihilation is the aim of both sides - that's
why they can both go and shite.

So many people throw this around, because it happens in a "far away" land it doesn't mean we should close our eyes.

I meant that the situation becomes more black and white
the more removed you are from a conflict.

 

[Janer]

Hamas' aim is the annihilation of Israel. This was my
original point. Annihilation is the aim of both sides - that's
why they can both go and shite.


I meant that the situation becomes more black and white
the more removed you are from a conflict.

Fatah have long given up on the annihilation of Israel and yet they are treated to almost the same shit from Israel on the West Bank.
Don't get me wrong I am not supporting Hamas as the revolutionary fresh breath of air for the region but I still cannot endorse Israel's policies which only make Hamas stronger anyway.

You proberly called David and Goliath a draw anyway.

Point B : Fair enough.

 

[robitusson]

You're right. Blowing yourself up on buses filled with
school kids is how they should fight back. It's not a
warcrime when you're forced to use murderous ingenuity
because of poverty. They deserve your sympathy.

No. Bollocks. Both sides are murdering cunts. Both sides
perpetuate this war. Same fucking story, big men on top
making decisions and little guys doing the dirty work while
everyone else around them suffers and dies.

Except one side is a state, the other is some people in an illegal terrorist organisation. So one side is accountable internationally and the other isn't.

 

[the strange guy]

You proberly called David and Goliath a draw anyway.

 

[robitusson]

It's easy to be passionate about a war that doesn't affect you.
I'm sure everyone here has experienced someone from outside
Northern Ireland trying to explain their feelings on the Troubles.
Nine times out of ten they're talking out of their arse. The shit

That's true.

Hamas' aim is the annihilation of Israel. This was my
original point. Annihilation is the aim of both sides - that's
why they can both go and shite.

Same. Except one is a state, the other is some people. Different.

 

[the strange guy]

Hamas is a paramilitary/political organisation and is the driving
force of the elected Palestinian National Authority. I don't think
there's that much difference or legitimacy from Kadima other
than the fact that its army is internationaly recognised and
better funded.

 

[robitusson]

Right so they represent Palestine. Which means what exactly?

 

[the strange guy]

You argued that they were just 'some people' as if they were a
rag tag bunch of messers. Being democratically elected removes
the argument that this is a state bullying a group of people. This
is a war between a heavily armed military on one side and
resourceful guerrila armies on the other. Both sides commit
attrocities on each others' citizens because that is where it hurts
the most. Both Palestinian and Israeli citizens suffer from the
consequences of their own and each others' leaders policies and
decisions. Both Palestinian and Israeli leaders should be tried for
their war crimes.

 

[Janer]

Hamas is a paramilitary/political organisation and is the driving
force of the elected Palestinian National Authority.

Debatable tbh, Hamas may hold sway in the Gaza but Fatah would be the driving force behind the PA. and obviously in almost complete control of The West Bank.

 

[Janer]

Watching Michael Collins for the 1st time at the moment and its a pretty decent film, not too many cliches which you normally get in these types of film.

 

[robitusson]

Being democratically elected removes
the argument that this is a state bullying a group of people.

'fraid not. They don't represent a state. It's totally different. You can't compare what is criminal action against civilians on one side to state war crimes and aggression against civilians on the other.

I take your point that no one wins and victims are victims regardless of rights and wrongs, but the fact is there's a clear aggressor here. It's also Israel's onus to end their illegal occupation before any end to violence can occur. That's the fundamental cause of all this shit.

 

[the strange guy]

I think all sides are aggressors. Aggression isn't easily
quantified. Can you compare a suicide bomber with a jetplane
pilot and decide who deserves your sympathy most? Can you
compare a bombed Palestinian university with kids massacred in
an Israeli school and determine which was the more aggressive
act? So who is the clear aggressor? I can see who is better
armed and I can see who is hitting hardest, but as far as
aggression and intent goes, I'd say they're even.

 

[robitusson]

One way you could quantify it is by how many innocent deaths are caused and by who, but you said you feel that numbers alone don't constitute a tragedy, so how anyone else does is their choice.

Sure everyone involved deserves our sympathy and any death on any side is a tragedy, but we don't have to be naive about who is ultimately accountable for this happening.

 

[Moods For Mallards]

One way you could quantify it is by how many innocent deaths are caused and by who, but you said you feel that numbers alone don't constitute a tragedy, so how anyone else does is their choice.

Well, then we're obviously back to THe Strange Guy's point about one of the sides being better equipped and funded. Clearly, they are going to kill more people if they're so inclined. It's understandable that people unequivicolly take sides against Israel, favouring the underdog, but I agree with THe Strange Guy when he says that the fact that Hamas is weaker does not make it morally superior to Israel.