Truce (1 Viewer)

[IU]

Look, Irish Unsigned is not in competition with anyone so why should anyone slate it for no reason? Our whole reason for doing something is that other resources (like H35 was supposed to be and HotPress.com etc) all have a vested interest. Even Things... does (the promotion of your own brand of music). We don't.

Integrity, credibility and independence are our watchwords and if we ever become a wagging-tail for some industry company, remind me I said this, and I'll quit.

In case you don't believe our intentions are good, have a look at www.NationalMusicPrize.com - study it (not just a quick glance) and then tell me that we are not painstakingly trying to guarantee cross-industry involvement. Hell, we are even getting Phantom FM on the same panel as Spin FM, and the BCI. While the National Music Prize has not been launched yet (what you will see is in ieffect a Sponsorship proposal I put up there to illustrat the point) it will aim at the commercial end of the market - being a big brother to IU, if you like. It will also honour 'real' Irish artists (just look at the selection panel if you disagree) and will *not* in all likelihood, honour the Westlife's out there. In the running for the First award will be the likes of D.Rice (ex Juniper), HHFlowers, Juliet Turner, and so on. If you like, it will be the 'alternative' end of the commercial market.

Our aim is, simply, the further development of Irish music in any way we think we can.

Something wrong with that?

 

[Monkey]

you should probably get a new website designer...

 

[treelo]

i feel like vomiting. i don't want to say anything in case i start a new argument.
trying really hard not to hurl...

 

[IU]

Monkey (10 Feb, 2002 12:56 p.m.):
you should probably get a new website designer...

Are you offering? Prove your ability and we accept. It pays fuck all though. BTW, don't you know that everybody's taste is not your choice?

 

[billygannon]

Truce?...was there a war? Things You're Missing will do their Things and www.irishunsigned.com will do their thing.

 

[Monkey]

"Are you offering?" no I've got too many things to do already

"BTW, don't you know that everybody's taste is not your choice?" yes, but there is such a thing as bad design.

but here are a couple of reasons why I said what I said that might help you make it better.

The green buttons look awful. The texture on them is just distracting, the text is not placed the same on all of them, they are not equally spaced, the live gigs one uses a different font to the rest

There's a table with 3 columns, the left one is empty so there's no balance there and it looks unfinished or broken.

The shade of green doesn't gel with that redish purpley colour.

Most people don't and won't look at website in full screen mode

Too many different colours of text.

and statements like "Ireland set to get it's own prestigious prize" will endear you to noone.

(feel free to criticise my site if you like)

 

[silo]

(it appears there's been a truce without a war.)

(so

irishunsigned.com sounds like a labour of love for someone, but that doesn't mean that it's not operating on a certain set of assumptions. there's nothing explicitly "wrong" with irishunsigned.com. it merely has an implicit set of ideas that mean it skews the terms of debate a certain way.

firstly, and most obviously, it posits the artificial idea that there is some sort of divine line between 'signed' and 'unsigned' bands. to give only the most obvious example, if i run my own label and put out my own records and records by bands i like, (cf. greyslate, phlegethon, benjamin records, front end synthetics, alpha relish, road relish, psychonavigation, compactrisc, etc etc etc) does this mean i'm 'signed'? or am i 'unsigned' if i put out a record without putting pen to paper on a contract (with myself or someone else)? the semantics get ridiculous once you try to even define what the site is for.

however, there's also the terms used to refer to what's going on. "Ireland's newest resource for facilitating the development of Irish Acts and Artists" is a misnomer. in major/subsidiary label terms, "facilitating the development" usually means "promoting" or, in real terms, flogging the life out of some poor band who don't know any better on the interview round and making a quick buck. is this what you're proposing? or are you merely using industry-speak in order to give the site some 'industry credibility'?

also, by saying "The easiest (free!) way for Acts and Artists to gain exposure to people in the Industry" assumes that people want this supposedly advantageous "exposure". by the same token, saying that it's a "resource for both sides of the Music Industry" again implies that there's a concrete division between those who can do "the music" and those who can do "the industry" and they're forever looking for new ways to connect with eachother.

independence, as far as i can see, is about relying on yourself and those around you, making your own connections without the need to chase around after people in the "industry". doing your own thing and still owning the copyright of the master tapes when you're seventy.

 

[silo]

but then again, seeing as you're going for "the 'alternative' end of the commercial market" it's probably ok. you could always go for the anti-marketing market, as bill hicks would no doubt tell you.

 

[IU]

Monkey (11 Feb, 2002 08:36 p.m.):
"Are you offering?" no I've got too many things to do already

Which is precisely my problem.

I accept all your criticisms. When the site was thrown together it was a case of flinging it up and seeing if it would work Reactions like this I can take as they are clear and well though out with the added value of constructive feedback. It will be taken on board too. I today called on someone who is in the design game (I only ever designed anything in black and white before doing www.nciGrapevine.com for a favour) since my background is in fanzines, magazines, print etc. There will be a redesign.

Monkey (11 Feb, 2002 08:36 p.m.):
and statements like "Ireland set to get it's own prestigious prize" will endear you to noone.

Would you agree that the Mercury Music Prize is considered prestigious by the industry? Most people would since it is (unlike the Meteors or the Brits) not voted on by Industry but by journalists, critics etc. Similarly, the World Footballer of the Year is voted for by journalists (although only the French ones) and is seen as independent of other concerns, like fashionability (is that a word?!). Ireland, if we get our way, will get it's own version of the Mercury, selected and voted by journalists in all mediums and open to ALL categories of Album release. We are in negotiations with Digifone's new owners and with a couple of Drinks companies as well as the owners of many of Ireland's 5* Hotels. Without being pedantic (because I am proud of how far two no-hopers managed to take the NMP) the line that Ireland is about to get it's own prestigious music prize, is absolutely correct (pending sponsorship deal!). If you remind me, I will even try to arrange a free pass for you if it goes ahead. The final will be in October, hopefully with ASH and KILA playing.

Monkey (11 Feb, 2002 08:36 p.m.):
(feel free to criticise my site if you like)

I don't feel I have the qualifications or the expertise. Now, if it was a b/w effort in print.....

 

[IU]

silo (12 Feb, 2002 07:52 p.m.):
(it appears there's been a truce without a war.).

It cenrtainly felt like I was fighting a bit of a battle in the other threads.

silo (12 Feb, 2002 07:52 p.m.):
independence, as far as i can see, is about relying on yourself and those around you, making your own connections without the need to chase around after people in the "industry". doing your own thing and still owning the copyright of the master tapes when you're seventy.

I'll cover your other points but this one explains the difference. IU never said it was an Indie anything. It is quite the opposite. It exists to provide a resource for those that want it. Like the problem with those that moan about TV programs, anyone who doesn't like IU's concept (and I accept them without any problem) is welcome to ignore it. Unfotunately, not everyone is able to do for themselves. Some people, four of whom I spoke to today, are desperate for information as they think they can make it. As I said before, I would never proclaim anything as bad music, unless it is a direct copy, merely music I might not personally like (which is a rarity) so IU will do wjhatever it can to help anyone who wants our help.

*We are not stupid enough to suggest that we can define what is signed and what is unsigned. We have that conversation every day. Unfortunately, we have yet to get around to our definition due to the emphasis on the National Music Prize. When we do, we will be asking an extremely respected academic expert on the Irish Music Industry, and the Irish Music Board also, to help with the terms of reference.

*If the use of my words is considered to be industry speak, then I have to say (no insult intended) that this is simply because we have different approaches to the language. I would accept it is business language but that is because I have been in business, meet regularly with business people to discuss matters and want this project to appear to be businesslike and professional-appearing. I write and edit the major part of the NCI College newspaper 'Grapevine' and I use that sort of languag all the time. Fuck, I even use it in my emails and posts some time. Can't help it, and probably, if truth be known, wouldn;t want to change it. As I said in a post elsewhere, I am a wordsmith and words are what I know. Half the reason why two blokes with nothing but honest enthusiasm could get the Irish version of the Mercury Music Prize off the ground (again, pending sponsor!) is due to that language. The reason why I could get the Berkeley Court Hotel to give me free accomodation for students is because of the use of language. I'll leave it at that as I am sure you get my point.

*The internet IS the easiest free way to get across any messgae, including promotion and advertising. That line was not mine. It was from a report written about the potential for marketing in the Internet age. That report was the basis for Ryanair.com becoming a reality and the Ryanair story making huge leaps forward while their rivals were floundering. So, it's true. The other point is that it assumes someone wants it. Well, some people do and some of them have come across an industry divide. I won't force anyone to do anything, though so they are free not to use it.


can we continue this by email as I simply don't get the time to spend online and my eyes are fucked from all this late-at-night typing. If you want to discuss the semantics of the project I will be more than happy to oblige, honestly and openly. As I said to someone else in the forum, I would be more than happy to meet up somewhere for a drink or whatever and chat about it. Things is not any differnt than IU, it just has a different focus.

 

[billygannon]

Why do you always post in the wee hours of the morning?

It's not that I've a problem with it, but I hope you don't work during the day. You'll wear yourself out....

 

[silo]

em... maybe better not to continue this at all... i've just had a look around the board and read all the other stuff you were saying and i don't really see any crossover points, our assumptions seem to be quite far apart, to say the least.

a couple of points to finish though.

re: defining yourself.

when i was going on about the ridiculousness of using the word "unsigned" i was asking questions rhetorically. i didn't expect you to have a readymade definition handy, because none exists. so the fact that you "will be asking an extremely respected academic expert on the Irish Music Industry" to do this for you seems like a waste of time (and, probably, money, if you're paying them).

re: words used on site

you admit you're using 'business-speak' on irishunsigned.com because you "want this project to appear to be businesslike and professional-appearing" - that was precisely my point, you're assuming that you're going to be a facilitator between two 'groups' - music and industry (or exploiter and exploited blah blah blah). if nothing else, don't you think these people already have ways of communicating?

dunno what to say about all that ryanair stuff, it's completely irrelevant in this context.

in closing, i don't doubt that you're being open and honest, i just think the underlying assumptions for your activities are irrelevant when it comes to music for music's sake.

 

[IU]

glaxo smith klien billygannon (13 Feb, 2002 07:05 p.m.):
Why do you always post in the wee hours of the morning?

It's not that I've a problem with it, but I hope you don't work during the day. You'll wear yourself out....

I am in College full time (yes, even at my age - 34) and I also am working (wrong word, being unpaid?) with Dave on the researching of a potential Irish version of the Mercury Music Prize, although no relation to it). Night time is my time for two reasons: I am passionate about IU and the National Music Prize taking off, as well as being involved in the National Student Music Awards. Also, I am having trouble sleeping cos I gave up smokes 2 weeks ago. I get about 2-3 hours per night. And, yes, I am worn out :0)

At the moment, though, I am in a Database design lecture...

 

[IU]

silo (13 Feb, 2002 08:22 p.m.):
in closing, i don't doubt that you're being open and honest, i just think the underlying assumptions for your activities are irrelevant when it comes to music for music's sake.

Agreed, precisely. This is not about music AT ALL! This is about the provision of information so other people can make their own decisions. If that information includes contact between the two sides of the industry (which are disparate to you but not to everyone out there, who might want a more controlled introduction to the business by the record companies) then we will facilitate that contact, whoever istigates it.

The other thing is this: There are plenty of ways the two sides can learn about each other but most of them have a particular standpoint. Things is for rhose who want to DIY it; Others are only for one genre; others represent the established artists; others offer advise only, nothing else; others are businesses affiliated to the industry (both sides... and so on. We want to be a launch-point for any band that wants to be signed, or who doesn't want to be signed but needs other information, support, contacts etc. We also want to provide advise etc, both from bands like The Walss and The Hothouse Flowers etc who have ben thtough the mill as well as from OJKilkenny, NooneCasey etc in the business sphere about contracts and accounting (which Things members could use, in order to get BES funding for an Album like Jack L. and Metisse did) etc. There's more, but it is all about empowerment by informing.

 

[Anne OMalley]

I can't access http://www.irishunsigned.com. Is that the right URL?

 

[Stephen]

works fine for me if I type it into the browser.

 

[Stephen]

works fine for me if I type it into the browser.

 

[Stuart Little]

it works fine for Stephen if he types it into the browser.

 

[pee pee]

stuart says it works fine for stephen if he types it into the browser.

 

[Stephen]

so good I felt I should say it twice.

(what I meant was the link didn't work, but when I type it into the browser......).