What do you really think... (1 Viewer)

[cesspooldublin]

I'm gonna get a lot of shit for saying this personally, divisions in the scene don't bother me at all.I personally don't feel like I have anything in common with , say, the folks who post on Moshspace, or Punk for It, in terms of musical taste or anything else. And I'm not going to go out of my way at this point in my life to support something I don't feel any connection to or enjoy musically, I have neither the money or time to do so. I KNOW a bunch of other folks feel the same way about this, but noone ever says it.

I wish them well and all, but it's not for me. Likewise, I don't expect people to support stuff I do if they have no interest in it.It's always been that way, it always will be. The "eirecore" folks get a lot of shit for being intolerant or unsupportive of these kinda things (and yes, I'll put my hand up and say I personally have been guilty of it, something I've tried to change in the last while), but I firmly believe it goes both ways.

Basically I'm a grumpyu old man andI don't want to be part of the same scene as folks who don't believe Minor Threat and Bad Brains are hardcore bands

 

[cesspooldublin]

i blame the internet

yep.
it's a fucker. like the fact that I re-registered on here for one - I had to admit defeat!!!

 

[GARYXKNIFEDX]

I'm gonna get a lot of shit for saying this personally, divisions in the scene don't bother me at all.I personally don't feel like I have anything in common with , say, the folks who post on Moshspace, or Punk for It, in terms of musical taste or anything else. And I'm not going to go out of my way at this point in my life to support something I don't feel any connection to or enjoy musically, I have neither the money or time to do so. I KNOW a bunch of other folks feel the same way about this, but noone ever says it.

I wish them well and all, but it's not for me. Likewise, I don't expect people to support stuff I do if they have no interest in it.It's always been that way, it always will be. The "eirecore" folks get a lot of shit for being intolerant or unsupportive of these kinda things (and yes, I'll put my hand up and say I personally have been guilty of it, something I've tried to change in the last while), but I firmly believe it goes both ways.

Basically I'm a grumpyu old man andI don't want to be part of the same scene as folks who don't believe Minor Threat and Bad Brains are hardcore bands

Pretty much agree with what you're saying but not 100%. Peoples tastes and opinions change. No one can be forced to like or be interested in what's going on in other "scenes" but if they don't know about it at all,even if they would like to check out what's going on they won't have the opportunity to.
But I do reckon the aims of different scenes could ultimately be different.

 

[cesspooldublin]

yeah, with you that Gary, and I'd actually just tried to edit/reword my post a little, but it won't let me!

What I was going to add was: Basically peoplee are always gonna differ in musical taste. You for example, would probably not have much interest in some free noise or hip hop band I'd throw on a bill, in the same way I might have no interest in seeing an acoustic act PFI or someone might do. That doesn't mean for one second my gig is better than theirs,they're just doing what they want, and I'm doing what I want. Putting on a gig/band you don't like for the sake of it, or just to mix the scenes, is a disaster waiting to happen. People put on bands they like/know out of trust I think a lot of the time.Bringing in "outsiders" can work brilliantly in some cases, can be disastrous with others. Part of the reason everyone works with their own set of bands, or their own clique, is because you know what your getting both musically and in terms of how they operate. I've put on folks I didn't know for example, who hadn't played a gig before, and turned around looking for a bunch of money and started leaving cans around the place.Surefire way to not get gigs, and probably why if I'm putting together a gig now I'm more likely to ask Divisions Ruin or whoever - I know they're not gonna behave like dicks or demand some ridiculous "fee", and they know how I do things and are happy (least last time I checked!) with how I work. Pur little scenee is supposed to be based around trust yeah?So I ain't gonna work with folks I don't trust.

I'm all for mixed bills though.Provided iot's a mixed bill of bands who are really fucking good

 

[jane]

Having said that, I also put on a couple of hip hop bands who were the most punk as fuck, DIY or die thing you can imagine in terms of their ethics.

I think this is the important point here, though. Because punk -- or a relatively 'safe' version of it -- has been absorbed as a marketable thing, the concept of DIY has not gone away, it's just broadened. In some ways, it's probably contracted, I guess because ratehr than lots of little DIY scenes based in various genres, all the genres can be brought together because of the DIY approach. So yeah, there are bands going the more commercial route, and I share your sentiments. It's a bit like watching your favourite pub being turned into a more profitable wine bar, and no matter how much you still wanna support it because it's run by the same folks, you just can't get totally comfortable with it. But! I also think there are a lot of people opting out of the label and A&R MySpace courtships, and actually using these new kinds of networks to meet peopel who share a philosophy, rather than a musical style. And like Brian, I think this is hugely exciting. I love the idea of going to a gig to see a band and finding a totally new kind of band or musician or whatever that I wouldn't otherwise have come across.

I agree with a lot of what Gary said, and when I first moved to Cork about ten years ago, the scene was small and not hugely active, but not only was it friendly, I was struck by how people would go to a gig because it was a gig. Mixed line-ups were kind of a necessity because there weren't always enough bands around to fill a bill from a single type of music, and anyway, mixing things up was way more fun. I really like that and I think there should be more of it because it means different groups of people who are like-minded in their relatiionships with bands/music get to cross paths and just be aroudn each other, validate each other's existence.


On a personal level, for me, it's the independent/DIY approach that makes it mean something to me, because for most of us, we appreciate labours of love -- of whatever kind -- more than a commodity. It's the way that when you listen to the music, then you go to the gig, the whole experience of meeting people, maybe eating some punk stew on the floor of someone's house and having farting contests, that's all wrapped up in the music and the community, and it just means more to us. I think there's a lof of awesome stuff happening right now, but not only is it not all punk, it's not all music -- storytelling, crafting, etc -- and that means that not only has the DIY spirit been weathering all kinds of shit, it's actually got bigger. I'm doing a series on cheap stuff do in Dublin, but it's really about the different corners where the DIY ethic thrives, mainly in non-musical contexts. The dudes in the Transport Museum are punk as fuck!

As for promoting DIY in non-punk publications, I think these things have to be written by someone sympathetic to it, or who at least 'gets' it, otherwise it ends up being written with the same industry-focused language, or treated as some sort of novelty. But when they're done right, they can open up the DIY ethic to people who might not otherwise have encountered it, and that's excellent.

 

[Daniel]

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i dont see the "scene" being restricted to "hardcore" or "punk" at all; i think to do so is to operate from a fairly blinkered and conservative viewpoint. it's an unfortunate reminder that for many, involvement and appreciation of music is seen as a means of adopting an identity. thankfully, the incredible variety and versitility of acts is evidence of the willingness to transcend the strained restrictions of categorisation.

to me, the "scene" would include terrordactyl, zorilla, drainland, mongolia, united bible studies, papercut, thingumajigsaw, jenny and the deadites, hooray for humans (relevantly containing members of my remorse and eachtra) ghastly grimey orchestra and so on... that's an incredible wealth of really wonderful talent right there. and, notably, these bands dont sound alike whatsoever. what does link them is not only geography and personal familiarity but most importantly independance, a d.i.y. attitude / process / background, open-mindedness, a sense of fun (in terms of the pleasure taken in creativity exercised rather than frivolity) and the fact the music of all these acts comes from the heart.

Oh balls... here goes my rep....
Just a quick rant, not meant at anyone in particular....

One of the main reason i am into this whole scene is believe it or not the "hardcore punk " music that comes with it. I have very little interest in all these sub/post genres that alot of "punks" play nowadays. For some reason all this music "has to be accepted" by the punk scene. I suppose its a good practice space before approaching the big indie venues (Whelans, Roisin Dubh) for which this type of music is really meant for maybe... Thats cool if you are open minded and into all this but for me its just a gig that people might expect you go to because so and so from some decent punk band is in them.
For example... i love Minor Threat but i don't care much for Fugazi.
I don't think that just because a band is "independent" it has to be a DIY punk band or be part of that scene.

 

[closed groove]

I am not sure how many people here were at GGI this year but did anyone notice the size of the crowd at it? I thought GGI would be one of the biggest dates on the irish punk calendar but looking at the size of the crowd at it I think had the wrong idea!!
while i was up at ggi I was talking to jonnie boyd from belfast anyways jonnie was talking of arranging a touring network for bands coming to ireland where they could be gauranteed certain towns to play when they came over e.g. Belfast,Dublin,Galway,Sligo and where ever else I believe this might be a good way of attracting bands.
I cant really comment on the punk scene in ireland to much as I am from sligo and rarely get to go to gigs anywhere else but here. but I am moving to galway tomorrow so hopefully I will get a better idea of it.

 

[cesspooldublin]

Oh balls... here goes my rep....
Just a quick rant, not meant at anyone in particular....

One of the main reason i am into this whole scene is believe it or not the "hardcore punk " music that comes with it. I have very little interest in all these sub/post genres that alot of "punks" play nowadays. For some reason all this music "has to be accepted" by the punk scene. I suppose its a good practice space before approaching the big indie venues (Whelans, Roisin Dubh) for which this type of music is really meant for maybe... Thats cool if you are open minded and into all this but for me its just a gig that people might expect you go to because so and so from some decent punk band is in them.
For example... i love Minor Threat but i don't care much for Fugazi.
I don't think that just because a band is "independent" it has to be a DIY punk band or be part of that scene.

this illustrates my point I think,a dn I'm with you for about 90% of what you're saying Dan.... I pretty much only disagree with you on the whole idea of non punks using DIY as a practice space for bigger venues>I wouldn't for example call Domhnach Dubh,Disfunk, Slomatics or Toymonger "punk" musically, but they're a lot truer to the DIY ethic ('MAtics especially!) than some of the "punk" bands around right now,and you can be sure these folks will happily play somewhere like the Lower Deck as comfortably as a bigger venue.DIY is not exclusively a punk thing.

 

[BC]

One of the main reason i am into this whole scene is believe it or not the "hardcore punk " music that comes with it. I have very little interest in all these sub/post genres that alot of "punks" play nowadays. For some reason all this music "has to be accepted" by the punk scene.
I don't think that just because a band is "independent" it has to be a DIY punk band or be part of that scene.

that's cool, theres going to be diverging opinions, and i was only responding to the "what do you think..." question. i personally dont see much distinction between one DIY gig and another, i tend not to think in terms of musical styles or genres. i'm not suggesting that all styles be merged together for gigs, as jamie pointed out, that may well be a recipe for disaster. i do think though that if you are exclusively focusing on DIY hardcore bands, you may find its a bit quiet. i would just point out that it's just one small section of a fairly vibrant independant scene.

 

[jane]

Oh balls... here goes my rep....
Just a quick rant, not meant at anyone in particular....

One of the main reason i am into this whole scene is believe it or not the "hardcore punk " music that comes with it. I have very little interest in all these sub/post genres that alot of "punks" play nowadays. For some reason all this music "has to be accepted" by the punk scene. I suppose its a good practice space before approaching the big indie venues (Whelans, Roisin Dubh) for which this type of music is really meant for maybe... Thats cool if you are open minded and into all this but for me its just a gig that people might expect you go to because so and so from some decent punk band is in them.
For example... i love Minor Threat but i don't care much for Fugazi.
I don't think that just because a band is "independent" it has to be a DIY punk band or be part of that scene.

I don't think that sounds particularly ranty, but anyway, I think the point at least I was trying to make was that I'm personally not involved solely for the music. Some people are, and I think if people are going to stick with one genre, they're going to maybe have to broaden the kinds of gigs (in terms of who organised it) they go to. For me, it's only partly about the music, and I'm goign to have a better time at a gig that's organised independently (within certain types of music obviously, not just anything at all) because the atmosphere is different. Not everyone is the same. Some people just want the music.

There's nothing wrong with having a variety of gigs, where you've got all-punk lineups that will draw people who want to see that, and varied lineups that will draw other people. And the problem is, you're always going to have people who want to 'make it' playing DIY gigs, and that's always the way it's been -- those people were always there, it's just that there haven't always been as many avenues for commercial success as there are now. And people either make it and go off somewhere to be disappointed by fleeting fame, or they realise that DIY is much more fun and rewarding, or they become bitter and jaded and disappear completely. A small handful will actually make it properly. The only thing you can do to keep those people out is to put all bands under scrutiny and question their motives, which kind of sounds a bit fascistic.

I like Fugazi and Minor Threat for different reasons and that doesn't have to be in conflict with your preference for Minor Threat. And isn't that what part of the DIY thing is supposed to be about, doing your own thing and being able to coexist with people who have a similar approach to the world even if you don't like exactly the same stuff?

 

[BC]

DIY is not exclusively a punk thing.

exactly.

 

[GARYXKNIFEDX]

jonnie was talking of arranging a touring network for bands coming to ireland where they could be gauranteed certain towns to play when they came over e.g. Belfast,Dublin,Galway,Sligo and where ever else I believe this might be a good way of attracting bands.

.

Been discussed a few times before and not a whole lot came of it. Possible the timing was wrong,possibly the interest is just not there outside Dublin,Galway,Cork,Belfast. And from what I've experienced more recently and heard from others belfast isn't exactly thriving the way it once was(Janer's opinion excluded)

I'm not too into a lot of the subgenres of hardcore or diy myself,but in the right doses I definately welcome the participation of bands that don't fall into my taste. Wether it's to go outside and talk to mates or to meet cool people with something to ad to the overall picture,it has it's place.

 

[GARYXKNIFEDX]

Also commenting on Jamie's point earlier about merging scenes being disastous. I kinda think the only way it works is when the people in bands actively seek gigs outside of the scene they started in. And then,don'\t act like dicks.
That's possibly contadicting some of the other points i've made,but,the decent people will gravitate towards other likeminded if the opprtunity is given.

 

[Daniel]

i do think though that if you are exclusively focusing on DIY hardcore bands, you may find its a bit quiet. i would just point out that it's just one small section of a fairly vibrant independant scene.

Thats kinda why i started this thread. It was mainly aimed at the hardcore punk stuff/scene..... you know "Eirecore"(or lack of).

 

[jane]

Oh yeah, and in my experience -- and this is just from personal experience -- the DIY stuff that isn't strictly punk I've found to be a lot more female-friendly. And I mean 'female friendly' as in a variety of types of women. When I used to do some of the GZ nights, people used to comment that I didn't 'look' like they expected me to. And I encountered a good few people who thought I just worked for the venue and would be kinda snotty with me. It's not like it happened all the time, and it's a small enough scene that people eventually figured it out, but it was very off-putting to see how narrowminded the supposed punk kids actually were. And it wasn't just Dublin. In the world of DIY outside of punk, the only times my 'cred' has been questioned has actually just been by people like bar managers and bouncers. I'm much more comfortable in the wider world of DIY than I would be at a hardcore gig. Infinitely so.

 

[jane]

That's possibly contadicting some of the other points i've made,but,the decent people will gravitate towards other likeminded if the opprtunity is given.

I don't think this is contradictory at all. it's what I was trying to say in my post.

 

[BC]

Thats kinda why i started this thread. It was mainly aimed at the hardcore punk stuff/scene..... you know "Eirecore"(or lack of).

aye, i do tend to be of the opinion that the more narrow ones point of view is, the less one sees.

I'm not too into a lot of the subgenres of hardcore or diy myself,but in the right doses I definately welcome the participation of bands that don't fall into my taste. Wether it's to go outside and talk to mates or to meet cool people with something to ad to the overall picture,it has it's place.

when i head along to a gig in the lower deck, for example, i'm not going to like every band. but that doesn't get in the way of anything: the general atmosphere at these gigs are for the most part positive and inclusive. thankfully bullshit statements like "stay out of punx" are limited to internet bravado.

 

[closed groove]

Been discussed a few times before and not a whole lot came of it. Possible the timing was wrong,possibly the interest is just not there outside Dublin,Galway,Cork,Belfast.

I would say it would be something to maybe make another effort at. I say it might just be that thing that will bring more touring bands to ireland I dunno why it did not work before but to even have something in place I have often seen threads on eirecore for bands frantically looking for somewhere to play. this might also cancel out this problem aswell

 

[Daniel]

I don't think that sounds particularly ranty, but anyway, I think the point at least I was trying to make was that I'm personally not involved solely for the music. Some people are, and I think if people are going to stick with one genre, they're going to maybe have to broaden the kinds of gigs (in terms of who organised it) they go to. For me, it's only partly about the music, and I'm goign to have a better time at a gig that's organised independently (within certain types of music obviously, not just anything at all) because the atmosphere is different. Not everyone is the same. Some people just want the music.

agree, my contribution to the scene is putting on fast bands and playing in fast bands I certainly wish i had more time to be more involved in the other stuff that goes with the whole DIY buzz... zines, political stuff.

Anyway back to the original post... kinda

What is the scene like in Ireland compared to other places with a similiar population and geography?

 

[jane]

I think one of the things that happens with some bands is that once they start playing slightly bigger gigs,or get a mention in more mainstream music press,the diy scene yells "sell-out" and wants nothing to do with them. I'm sure at least some of the bands who become more popular would be willing and maybe evn love to continue playing to more diy audiences. I also reckon were this to happen it would be quite healthy.

I completely missed this point when I first read through this thread, but I think it's pretty important. I mean, some bands 'make it' by accident, and some want to, etc. I've always been a bit sad that once someone tries to 'make it' the DIY scene doesn't have a very good record of re-accepting them, maybe, I dunno, to save face after having called them a sell-out.

You get bands playing 'secret' gigs in small venues maybe partly for this reason, they miss the intimacy of the DIY gig and this is the closest thing their management can think to do. Maybe because that management has a 'relationship' with corporate promoters that would be threatened by booking the band to play a DIY gig just for fun. But I also think that the DIY scene facilitates that by not always being very nice about bands becoming successful.