the hurling (1 Viewer)

[CITY BABY]

The NHL started today , anyone go to any of the matches?
the galway v clare one sounded like a cracker, looking forward to seein that and the wexford waterford one on the sunday game! Any of ye jackeens go down ta see dublin bate antrim?
Limerick v laois match was quite good, laois put up a good opening half, limerick look very rusty to start, but ran away with it very easy in the end.
Pat tobin had an outstanding game, scored 1-06 , shaughs had a slow start but finished up scoring 2-06. Lucey had a poor game at full back I thought.
great ta have it back though.|..|.|..|

 

[rettucs]

so, do we think that systematic juicing has finally made it to hurling?

the sheer strength and power of that Limerick team while not even flagging in the slightest, despite the intensity, has me wondering.

Not to mention that their main benefactor dopes animals for a living and has endless supplies of money.

Maybe I've gotten too cynical from other sports I've followed, but I find it hard to believe an amateur team can reach that level by legal means.

 

[ann post]

so, do we think that systematic juicing has finally made it to hurling?

the sheer strength and power of that Limerick team while not even flagging in the slightest, despite the intensity, has me wondering.

Not to mention that their main benefactor dopes animals for a living and has endless supplies of money.

Maybe I've gotten too cynical from other sports I've followed, but I find it hard to believe an amateur team can reach that level by legal means.

Not quite yet

KK were at full intensity for the first half and wilted around 55 mins.
Limerick were only intense for the second half and generally have a long range game down to an art. They only ever really run 1/4 pitch lengths

 

[rettucs]

Not quite yet

KK were at full intensity for the first half and wilted around 55 mins.
Limerick were only intense for the second half and generally have a long range game down to an art. They only ever really run 1/4 pitch lengths

I think thats a bit of a myth though. The same was said after the Galway game. In comparison to the intensity shown in the second half, it looked like Limerick were idling in the first, but if you look back, they were working hard. They just weren't getting things their own way. Yesterday they were working even harder. Yet they could bring it to a level of sustained intensity that should not be possible for an amateur team. Not, at least, without it looking like it was taking a toll on them. But it didn't. That game could have gone on for 2 more hours and they wouldn't have gotten tired.

Limerick have brought the game to a level that can only be attained with wads and wads of money. The game is fucked.

 

[Denny Oubidoux]

Go back to Kilkenny

 

[ann post]

Kilkenny might have just lost you know

I rewatched the final 20 there. KK aren't landing puckouts and keep trying for golden goals. Limerick barely leave their own half and keep scoring thier usual style long Rangers but are also making tired fumbles. two KK goals defended off the line, one by a Limerick forward. The game is won between turnovers and puckouts, around 65 Aaron gillane can't out run his man. Limerick aren't ever running back to defend, they are just living between defence and midfield.

Also Cian Lynch was in physio till June and rather than playing a season was essentially training for this game

 

[rettucs]

Kilkenny might have just lost you know

I rewatched the final 20 there. KK aren't landing puckouts and keep trying for golden goals. Limerick barely leave their own half and keep scoring thier usual style long Rangers but are also making tired fumbles. two KK goals defended off the line, one by a Limerick forward. The game is won between turnovers and puckouts, around 65 Aaron gillane can't out run his man. Limerick aren't ever running back to defend, they are just living between defence and midfield.

Also Cian Lynch was in physio till June and rather than playing a season was essentially training for this game

but none of that answers the question - why did Limerick not get tired?

 

[rettucs]

Kilkenny didn't lose because they were outhurled. They lost because they were steamrolled, and Limerick just waltzed in over their corpses. I never saw anything that devastating, even from the great Kilkenny teams.

 

[ann post]

Kilkenny didn't lose because they were outhurled. They lost because they were steamrolled, and Limerick just waltzed in over their corpses. I never saw anything that devastating, even from the great Kilkenny teams.

This is not a great Kilkenny team. They brought in 34 year old sub who really wasn't looking too athletic in the clinch and they were depending largely on 35 year old TJ reid to make the game happen.
Limerick are a bunch of guys in thier mid to late twenties who grew up playing together since under 20s and range from around 6'2 to 6'7. That short looking one Cian Lynch I think is close to 6 ft.

If you rewatch that last twenty and consider that all KK are trying is bad puckouts and golden goals and the guys 5-8 years younger than them are only sitting waiting for a bad puckout to dismantle and then hunting for thier trademark quick pass to long range point formula rather than Kilkenny are a supernatural force you'll just see a team losing by not changing stance.

Just take a look at the size profile of the team

Limerick player-by-player guide: Jackie Tyrrell

All-Ireland hurling final 2020

www.irishtimes.com

 

[rettucs]

This is not a great Kilkenny team. They brought in 34 year old sub who really wasn't looking too athletic in the clinch and they were depending largely on 35 year old TJ reid to make the game happen.
Limerick are a bunch of guys in thier mid to late twenties who grew up playing together since under 20s and range from around 6'2 to 6'7. That short looking one Cian Lynch I think is close to 6 ft.

If you rewatch that last twenty and consider that all KK are trying is bad puckouts and golden goals and the guys 5-8 years younger than them are only sitting waiting for a bad puckout to dismantle and then hunting for thier trademark quick pass to long range point formula rather than Kilkenny are a supernatural force you'll just see a team losing by not changing stance.

Just take a look at the size profile of the team

Limerick player-by-player guide: Jackie Tyrrell

All-Ireland hurling final 2020

www.irishtimes.com

Lynch is taller than that. I walked beside him into the club finals one year. I'd say maybe 6.1 or 6.2

Its not a bad Kilkenny team. Don't fall into the trap that most of the pundits do. They are comfortably the second best team in the country, as shown by contesting the last 3 national finals. There's a lot of huff and puff and bluster out of some other teams, but they continually fail to deliver. Kilkenny go about their business with minimum fuss.

But they are a mile off Limerick. And yes, some of their players are on the old side. But those players still have a lot to offer. Whether they are still there next year, or not, remains to be seen.

Other red flags for me about Limerick. They went gung ho in the league this year. Put way too much into it for a team that should have been aiming to peak in July. The last time they did that was 2019 and they were caught out (by Kilkeny).

They have only started 18 different players across all of their all-Ireland finals. That is insane. How can a team with so little change stay fresh and motivated. I would suggest it is impossible. Certainly no one has ever done anything remotely like that before (albeit only 2 counties did a 4-in-a-row previously).

They have endless supplies of money, provided by someone who 'prepares' animals to be big, fast and strong. To anyone suggesting an irrelevance, ask them the question - how many all-Irelands would they have won without his millions? I'd suggest one, at a push ,two. But definitely not three or four.

Drugs testing is practically non-existent in GAA. I can go into more detail about this if you wish, but anyone who wants to take something to make themselves bigger and stronger, can go ahead without fear of ever been caught.

All of their players were taken out of their jobs for the past month and wrapped in cotton wool. They essentially have servants looking after them. This only happened when the championship reached knockout stages, hence them looking beatable at times in Munster, when it didn't matter.

Their physique. They have no body fat. They have amazing strength and amazing amounts of muscle mass. All of which should be impossible for an amateur player to attain.

At best, they are a professional team in an amateur game. At worst they are cheating.

 

[ann post]

I dunno, in that last twenty they aren't really a mile off Limerick, they are just tactically doing things in a way that suits Limerick - the are winning a fair few 50/50s but only looking at goals which ran then into a giant defense line over and over.

Like in very basic terms, if everyone is younger and fitter and taller than you then pure skill won't do it for you. If you watch the end again you will see that Limerick are tiring and cramping but also they are moving the play around the team constantly and running twenty metres at the most and only three games Cian Lynch is in the middle of everything doing the dogged stuff. In terms of movement there isn't a shocking gulf, just good and bad decisions.

I'm more inclined to say Kilkenny stood still because how do you ask Brian Cody to step down? Limerick aren't the only team to beat them in the past 6-7 years. Limerick have been building in the same period and are right in the age profile sweet spot, and superhuman or not have 4 on the injuries list which goes with having a tall team.

Yes they have money. So do Kerry, Dublin, Mayo and briefly donegal.

But Kilkenny had nothing tactically right other than to try and physically out run younger fitter taller people and that lasted as long as you'd expect. After that it was hope for a goal and not a lot else. Limerick were let play thier favourite game and the marking was shocking at times.

And the idea that a Kilkenny team looking at 4 in a row wouldn't be waited on hand and foot...

Kilkenny had that boarding school or whatever it was which was essentially a hurling school, I think that era has ended and we are like everything else in the neoliberal world, and maybe Kilkenny didn't move into it yet.

 

[JohnnyRaz]

Lynch is taller than that. I walked beside him into the club finals one year. I'd say maybe 6.1 or 6.2

Its not a bad Kilkenny team. Don't fall into the trap that most of the pundits do. They are comfortably the second best team in the country, as shown by contesting the last 3 national finals. There's a lot of huff and puff and bluster out of some other teams, but they continually fail to deliver. Kilkenny go about their business with minimum fuss.

But they are a mile off Limerick. And yes, some of their players are on the old side. But those players still have a lot to offer. Whether they are still there next year, or not, remains to be seen.

Other red flags for me about Limerick. They went gung ho in the league this year. Put way too much into it for a team that should have been aiming to peak in July. The last time they did that was 2019 and they were caught out (by Kilkeny).

They have only started 18 different players across all of their all-Ireland finals. That is insane. How can a team with so little change stay fresh and motivated. I would suggest it is impossible. Certainly no one has ever done anything remotely like that before (albeit only 2 counties did a 4-in-a-row previously).

They have endless supplies of money, provided by someone who 'prepares' animals to be big, fast and strong. To anyone suggesting an irrelevance, ask them the question - how many all-Irelands would they have won without his millions? I'd suggest one, at a push ,two. But definitely not three or four.

Drugs testing is practically non-existent in GAA. I can go into more detail about this if you wish, but anyone who wants to take something to make themselves bigger and stronger, can go ahead without fear of ever been caught.

All of their players were taken out of their jobs for the past month and wrapped in cotton wool. They essentially have servants looking after them. This only happened when the championship reached knockout stages, hence them looking beatable at times in Munster, when it didn't matter.

Their physique. They have no body fat. They have amazing strength and amazing amounts of muscle mass. All of which should be impossible for an amateur player to attain.

At best, they are a professional team in an amateur game. At worst they are cheating.

Kilkenny brought the physicality into hurling in a big way about 15 years ago and people were saying the same things..

KK are a team in transition with a lot of old bodies - limerick are at their peak.

 

[rettucs]

And the idea that a Kilkenny team looking at 4 in a row wouldn't be waited on hand and foot...

Kilkenny had that boarding school or whatever it was which was essentially a hurling school, I think that era has ended and we are like everything else in the neoliberal world, and maybe Kilkenny didn't move into it yet.

good post AP, lots of food for thought there. And if you are right, and you could well be, then maybe my fear is misplaced. Right now I am fearing for the future of the game. There are, at a push, 8 teams who could be considered strong. Losing even one of those (and Wexford are on the cusp), would be a disaster.

Just on the quoted points above. Kilkenny have one 'professional' player. That is, a player who is being looked after financially to 'mind' himself. However, its not who you think, and contributed very little to what Kilkenny achieved this year.

Some of the players are students, others teachers. All the rest work, and have been working right up to friday. A cousin of mine works in the hospital and a prominent Kilkenny player was working in there with him 2 days before the game.

So, no, I have to correct you on that point.

As regards the boarding school - St.Kierans - nothing has changed there except that they don't do boarders anymore. But it is still a hurling nursery and every kid brings their hurl to school. They still win or contest colleges finals almost every year. So that is as it was.

I do think hurling as a sport needs to be protected at all costs. What happened Offaly can't be allowed happen to Wexford. Laois and Westmeath need to get a disproportionate amount of funding to bring on the game. Kildare, likewise, and anyone else that shows signs of promise.

What can't be allowed to happen is to have a Man City who no one can compete with unless they have a billionaire backing them.

 

[therealjohnny]

has anyone considered the possibility that they might be android ringers?

 

[rettucs]

Kilkenny brought the physicality into hurling in a big way about 15 years ago and people were saying the same things..

KK are a team in transition with a lot of old bodies - limerick are at their peak.

they did.

but lets trace it back to the mid-90s, which is when the game really began to change. That time it was Clare and they really upped the ante in terms of fitness and strength. But they were coming from a really low bar. Loughnane ran the bollix off them on some hill in Shannon. It got them 2 all-Irelands. Probably should have had a third but for a tonne of fuck-acting. But the end result was that a lot of players suffered burnout and the team whittled away.

The next major evolution was Cork with their running game. This was both skill and fitness combined, whereas beforehand teams had one or the other (Clare were not especially skilful). Kilkenny finally got to grips with that by upping their physicality and fitness, and generally having the best hurlers for the next decade.

The next evolution, I would argue, failed. It was to try and make the game very tactical and Davy Fitz was one of the main culprits here. Some of the shit he did with his teams was off the scales batshit crazy, with tactics so convoluted that even the players were confused as hell.

Kilkenny's physicality wasn't as much about their physique as it was about being able to combine skill with physicality, and by playing on the edge of what was allowed. They mastered it and got their amazing successes as a result.

Tipperary managed to peep the head in every now and then trying to emulate what Kilkenny were doing. And they succeeded on a few occasions, because they had great players. But they were mentally weak, hence winning far less than they arguably should/could have.

What is happening now is skirting very close to breaching the amateur ethos of the sport. And yes, football teams have already done this, but I don't care about football. We are at a stage where a team cannot compete without meticulously managing every aspect of a player's life. Their work, their food, their sleep. Everything. In short, to compete with a team doing these things, you also have to do these things. If it costing 10s of thousands per player, who can realistically afford to do it?

Limerick are professional athletes, end of. They don't earn a salary for playing (I hope), but they are professional in terms of how they are personally managed.

In both the Galway and Kilkenny games, the games turned on their heads without the Limerick management having to make any kind of tactical change. In fact, its a while since I can remember any tactical change that Limerick have ever made on the line. Meaning the team management is almost irrelevant.

It was also quite telling that Kiely ran up to McManus with the cup after the game. McManus has bought and paid for, at least, 3 of Limerick's all-Irelands.

 

[ann post]

What is happening now is skirting very close to breaching the amateur ethos of the sport. And yes, football teams have already done this, but I don't care about football. We are at a stage where a team cannot compete without meticulously managing every aspect of a player's life. Their work, their food, their sleep. Everything. In short, to compete with a team doing these things, you also have to do these things. If it costing 10s of thousands per player, who can realistically afford to do it?

You cant make that post without taking on board that kilkenny literally had a boarding school to teach hurling which arguably is the difference between kilkenny and the rest of the country.

 

[rettucs]

You cant make that post without taking on board that kilkenny literally had a boarding school to teach hurling which arguably is the difference between kilkenny and the rest of the country.

but that makes the assumption that no other hurling county had the same?

every other hurling county had the same.

 

[ann post]

but that makes the assumption that no other hurling county had the same?

every other hurling county had the same.

And the non hurling counties didn't? In it's era, it was proffessionalising. And no, i think it's a pretty specific to kilkenny thing.

 

[rettucs]

And the non hurling counties didn't? In it's era, it was proffessionalising. And no, i think it's a pretty specific to kilkenny thing.

I don't understand your point.

Every hurling county has/had a hurling nursery.

Many non-hurling counties had the football equivalent.

If you are talking about St.Kieran's giving Kilkenny an advantage over non-hurling counties, I'm not sure when that argument started. But it definitely doesn't give them an advantage over other hurling counties.

 

[rettucs]

and if you want to point at colleges giving a county an unfair advantage, look no further than Dublin, where they get to enter a combined colleges team.