Pt. 2 Against His Will - Notes on the New Gay Predator (1 Viewer)

[stunning]

Fair fucks Thomas.

Well...exactly.

 

[stunning]

I don’t see anything to be proud of in seeking equality in savagery.

It's equality in fantasy...I think.

How does it further a minority’s cause (be they gay, female, whatever) to see themselves as protagonists of some of society’s worst crimes of dominance?

I've spent the last few days trying to track down an article about this gay kid (20's) who was sitting in his car and was verbally assaulted by a group of 3 HetBoys. He yelled back at them to fuck off or whatever...they came at him with some bats or something. He reached under his car seat, pulled out a gun...just as the fuckers got near him he shot the gun over their heads. Of course, they pissed themselves and went running.

Now, I don't believe that carrying a gun is going to make my world a better place...I'm much to clumsy...however, those mutha fucking asshole pricks will think twice before they try to assault someone again...verbally or otherwise.

It's a great story...it'll never make it into a movie though.

Mary, I know you've probably seen the movie/play Extremities...

I want one of those. I want my Extremities. I don't just want a lovely Will & Grace normality...I want to see that if you fuck with me...you'll fucking wish you hadn't. Queer As Folk is the closest I've seen. That's not saying much. The general audience was Queer to begin with...

Lastly I want to say that as a spiritual human being, I don't think violence is ever a good choice...I'm not a vengeful person, I believe in the gift of forgiveness...I don't seek revenge on those who harm me or cause injury.

That's what I have entertainment and sexplay for.

Thomas

 

[kstop]

Now, I don't believe that carrying a gun is going to make my world a better place...I'm much to clumsy...however, those mutha fucking asshole pricks will think twice before they try to assault someone again...verbally or otherwise.

Yeah, they'll think "Hey, I gotta get me one of those bangsticks too!" (We've all seen TOS 45...) Then next time yer man pulls out his gun, they pull out theirs, the irony of the phallic imagery is lost on all concerned, and somebody ends up dead.

 

[stunning]

Yeah, they'll think "Hey, I gotta get me one of those bangsticks too!" (We've all seen TOS 45...) Then next time yer man pulls out his gun, they pull out theirs, the irony of the phallic imagery is lost on all concerned, and somebody ends up dead.

I know, I know, I know. Violence breeds violence...but sometimes I need to fantasize about it or I constantly feel like the schmuck victim constantly taking the high road.

Brilliant points you made.

Thomas

 

[LMD64]

Well, as a work of art, the play "Take Me Out", mentioned earlier on is probably a valid form of artistic expression (Marquis de Sade, anyone?)
Problem is, there can be a fairly blurred line between fantasising about, and acting on impulse (men just can't help acting on impulse, sometimes), and I think that's where a part of the problem lies. I don't want to rush into a judgement about this, particularly when so many valid points have been raised (Juno, i agree with you BIG TIME on the perpetuating of fear and domination).
Also, Herv's got a point as well, re: subverting the stereotypes, but possibly its about the symbolism of the act, the oppressed turning the tables on the oppressor and confronting him with his greatest fear, violently enforced submissiveness along with subjective emasculation.
Also (again) the fact that it occurs in the showers (usually a sanctuary of inviolable safety) where the oppressor is the most vulnerable to attack makes it a double whammy. Look at Psycho, for example, lone girl knifed in shower, in a way, pretty similar parallels (attacked when defenceless). It's about confronting fear in a non-threatening context (through drama or TV).

The big dilemma arises from the fact that, unlike Psycho, Take Me Out is verging on titillation for some people (hell, mutual and consensual shower sex is FUN - "Whoops, I dropped the soap!" ). But some people just can't help acting out their fantasies in reality, and for some, violence, power and domination in sex is the ultimate turn-on, especially when it's non-consensual. And that's why it's the act at the front of the play, rather than the idea behind it, that's so morally repugnant to a lot of people.
Better though, that these issues be talked about than not, so by providing a kind of controversial catalyst to discussion, the play has definitely served a legitimate purpose, as opposed to just trying to shock and outrage as many as possible, although that may have been the playwrights initial intention. By the way, I haven't actually seen the play, so I could have a different opinion afterwards. But anyway.
Great thread, Thomas, and Happy Pride Week to everyone!

 

[snap-apple]

finally got some time to read all this.
i think its important that gay folk or any minority don't feel oppressed, whether it be through media representation or real life, and i think that its obvious that society is progressing in this regard, but like herv and egg said i think using an argument which basically says "women and gays can be as fucked up as angry young white men" is a bit over the top.

so if i get this article right its encouraging people to let their desires run free, including rape fantasies etc. now what about a paedophile who gets off on regular images of kids in a clothing catelogue or similar? that paedophile is letting their imagination and desires run wild. what if this person has similar images on their PC? its regarded as wrong in society. and i think the logic is that they might act out their desires. that's a huge jump i know but bear with me.

maybe people's desires shouldn't be allowed run totally wild, maybe people should have a responsibility to society to check these 'dangerous' desires before they become urges. there is a definite grey area between fantasy and the urge to act on it. to me it is wrong to encourage straight or gay folk to think of rape fantasies or similar acts of agression as being totally ok. if you find a partner that will let you act it out well balls away - i'm not saying its wrong, but people should be aware and cautious of fantasy becoming reality.

 

[vertrauen]

Stunning/thomas: I can see your point, but there is a fine line, especially with regards to rape or paedophilia. If you fantasise about any of these things, and it is part of your psyche, then perhaps there is the possibility of the chance of acting out your fantasies?

 

[stunning]

so if i get this article right its encouraging people to let their desires run free, including rape fantasies etc. now what about a paedophile who gets off on regular images of kids in a clothing catelogue or similar? that paedophile is letting their imagination and desires run wild.

I stand by earlier statement...feel no guilt in your desires.

Desire doesn't hurt people. Actions and behaviours hurt people. They are two seperate things.

Yes, let your imagination and desires run wild!!! They're yours, they are a part of you and your psyche. Don't engage in a self-betrayal thats imposed on one's self based on societal norms. That is unholy.

Should people who think about sex with children be arrested Conor?

Thought Police anyone?

A clothing catalouge is different than child pornograpy...I think that argument is pretty weak. I'd rather have someone looking at a cataloge and engaging thier sexual desires in that safe way than buying child porn or acting out those fantasies with children.

Its not illegal to be a paedophile...it's illegal to have sex with children. There is a big difference and I think we have to be careful here.

Yeah?

Perhaps I'm sensitive to this because being a member of a sexual minority, throughout my life and still today I am told that my desires are sick and wrong. From childhood, that puts an incredible toll on a spirit.

I've had to struggle to find a way to somehow put that horrible information aside and find a way to embrace my desires...what I know is that most others aren't so lucky and never find a way to transcend that information.

There will always be people to tell all of us, gay straight or bi, that our thoughts are wrong, our desires are to be restricted.

To believe that puts one at risk for all sorts of self-harm.

Sorry, got a little long winded there.

Thomas

 

[stunning]

Stunning/thomas: I can see your point, but there is a fine line, especially with regards to rape or paedophilia. If you fantasise about any of these things, and it is part of your psyche, then perhaps there is the possibility of the chance of acting out your fantasies?

Is murder not worse a crime than rape?

When was the last time YOU thought about killing someone?

Thomas

 

[vertrauen]

Is murder not worse a crime than rape?

When was the last time YOU thought about killing someone?

Thomas

I can't remember when I ever wanted to kill someone. I guess the question should be, when was the last time YOU thought about killing someone. And if the answer is 'frequently' maybe you should, oh i don't know, see somebody about this?

Fantasising about killing somebody, for some perceived injustice etc, is slightly different to fantasising about raping somebody or having sex with little children, in my opinion. It doesn't really matter whether the actual crime is more serious or not.

 

[stunning]

Stunning/thomas: I can see your point, but there is a fine line, especially with regards to rape or paedophilia. If you fantasise about any of these things, and it is part of your psyche, then perhaps there is the possibility of the chance of acting out your fantasies?

So who do you trust to monitor people's thoughts?

AND

What interventions do you think should be put in place to control people's fantasies?

I can't believe I'm having this conversation.

We each have a fantasy life. Just because I jack off thinking about Henry Rollins fucking my brains out or vice versa doesn't mean its going to happen!

Thomas

 

[stunning]

Fantasising about killing somebody, for some perceived injustice etc, is slightly different to fantasising about raping somebody or having sex with little children, in my opinion.

I pose that your perception that it is slightly different is a direct result of the normalization of violence in our society. Are you completely out of touch with the horrors of violence?

Respectfully, your argument is ridiculous.

Murder IS worse than rape. Murder IS worse than rape. Murder IS worse than rape. Murder IS worse than rape. Murder IS worse than rape. Murder IS worse than rape.

I don't hit, kick or punch people. But again, I will indulge my fantasies of hitting, kicking and punching whoever and whenever I want.

It can actually help to engage in the process of the fantasy to AVOID the behavior itself. I can easily fantasize about KILLING George Bush or blowing up a building. Doing that helps me relief stress and also realize that its something I don't actually want to do.

Thomas

 

[spiritualtramp]

I don't hit, kick or punch people. But again, I will indulge my fantasies of hitting, kicking and punching whoever and whenever I want.

It can actually help to engage in the process of the fantasy to AVOID the behavior itself. I can easily fantasize about KILLING George Bush or blowing up a building. Doing that helps me relief stress and also realize that its something I don't actually want to do.

Thomas

I fantasise about getting a sniper gun , sitting on top of a tall building and shooting dead anybody that drops litter .

also , a nice daydream for me is standing at a pedestrian crossing with a baseball bat and smashing the shit out of any car that drives through it whilst there is a green light .

doesn't mean I'd actually do this in real life though .

 

[stunning]

I fantasise about getting a sniper gun , sitting on top of a tall building and shooting dead anybody that drops litter .

also , a nice daydream for me is standing at a pedestrian crossing with a baseball bat and smashing the shit out of any car that drives through it whilst there is a green light .

doesn't mean I'd actually do this in real life though .

Thanks for helping to illustrate my point.

Thomas

 

[stunning]

Murder IS worse than rape.

I'd just like to point out that in my above comment, which may appear flippant in the context it was used in, I mean no insensitivity to those who have survived rape or have loved ones who have either. My point wasn't meant to trivialize or minimize the horrors of sexual assault. Simply to remind the discussion that as a society we recognize that the act of murder is the most offensive of crimes, allowing for 0% healing on the victim's behalf.

Most sincerely,

Thomas

ps. Thanks M.C.

 

[snap-apple]

Desire doesn't hurt people. Actions and behaviours hurt people. They are two seperate things.

that's where we differ - i don't think they're completely seperate.
i don't think its wrong to have extreme thoughts or desires or fetishes, i think it is wrong to encourage people to have these thoughts the way the article (perhaps unknowingly) seems to be encouraging gay men to think that fantasising about raping straight men is ok. i am not one of these people who thinks that a paedo that jacks off to kids in a clothing catalogue should be locked up (i made the point that 'society' does), however i think that person needs to step back and control their desires before they act on them, even if only a small percentage act on these impulses i believe it is wrong to encourage people to let their desires run totally free.

 

[snap-apple]

I fantasise about getting a sniper gun , sitting on top of a tall building and shooting dead anybody that drops litter .

also , a nice daydream for me is standing at a pedestrian crossing with a baseball bat and smashing the shit out of any car that drives through it whilst there is a green light .

doesn't mean I'd actually do this in real life though .

you may not but someone more unhinged, under stress, indebriated may. my point was not that extreme thoughts are wrong, i disagree with the way the article completely doesn't deal with the fact that rape is wrong and hence people shouldn't really be encouraged to fantasise about it. i also think people are more likely to act out sexual fantasies than other extreme acts.

 

[Juno]

I'd just like to point out that in my above comment, which may appear flippant in the context it was used in, I mean no insensitivity to those who have survived rape or have loved ones who have either. My point wasn't meant to trivialize or minimize the horrors of sexual assault. Simply to remind the discussion that as a society we recognize that the act of murder is the most offensive of crimes, allowing for 0% healing on the victim's behalf.

Most sincerely,

Thomas

ps. Thanks M.C.

Firstly, it occurs to me that maybe this thread should have some kind of spoiler/trigger warning.

Secondly - and I don't like feeling like I have to do this - it might be obvious to some that I'm the M.C. Tom mentions above and as a result I feel I want to explain that my opinions aren't as a result of personal experience but are based on what I've heard from people who have been victims of sexual violence or have learned from studying counselling. The only reason I'm saying this at all is because I know a good few people on thumped and I want to stop any concerns/idle wonderings/whatever before they start. I was talking to Thomas yesterday and I suggested to him that some rape/abuse victims might disagree that murder is a worse crime than rape. I think it's a pointless argument anyway as noone alive has experienced both so there's no conclusion that can be made.

On the subject of fantasies...it's impossible to stop people from thinking about whatever they wish to think about. Attempts to dictate what can go on inside a person's brain are dangerous and futile (1984 territory). At the same time I would classify anyone who is willing to grant approval to every type of fantasy as a misguided liberal at best because I suspect that it's the element of guilt or shame or the existence of societal taboos that prevents many of those with paedophile/rape fantasies from acting them out in reality. I don't believe paedophilia is a choice but there's no way I'm going to approve of it in thought or action. I think it's a good thing that anyone who is so inclined is made to feel like their desires are unacceptable because unlike homosexuality (which takes place between two consenting adults) there is no element of consent in sex with a minor. Equally rape fantasies should be accompanied by the definite knowledge that they are not to be enacted in real life. Someone above suggested that it's possible to play out rape fantasies with a consenting partner - that's not really true because by definition rape infers a complete lack of consent and any attempts to recreate the situation might present a major difficulty insofar as how to make the act seem 'realistic' enough and again we're in to dangerous territory.

I agree with Conor - the free expression of desires has to be somewhat curtailed for the protection of others. The repression of desires can lead to self-harm but so can the expression when it's carried out on someone who isn't a willing participant and in rape and child abuse there's no such thing.

 

[stunning]

i disagree with the way the article completely doesn't deal with the fact that rape is wrong and hence people shouldn't really be encouraged to fantasise about it. i also think people are more likely to act out sexual fantasies than other extreme acts.

But the point of the article is that straight men are encouraged by the media, society, OUR OWN FAMILIES AND FRIENDS even, to not only fantasize about rape, but to do it!

I think the author knows that rape is bad.

The deal is this...at least the way I see it...starting with the understanding that POWER IS EROTIC. It has erotic value. Whether this is a result of the alienation associated with capitalism is irrelevant. If the revolution came today, it would take more than my lifetime to undue the damage to my sexuality and psyche...so I choose to embrace it. For whatever reason, its there...power is erotic.

Anyway, the erotic world becomes bigger to someone when they have more power...

See, that's all this aritcle is saying...as oppressed gender and sexual minorities gain power, the dimension of "Power as Erotic" opens up to them. It just so happens that he points out that we're still not on equal footing with straight men who hold the most power. We will still be given messages that we shouldn't strive for that power either, or we'll be punished.

So, whatever...

Thomas

 

[stunning]

i also think people are more likely to act out sexual fantasies than other extreme acts.

I'm curious how you've come to that conclusion. My personal and professional experience tells me that human beings are more willing to engage in violence than they are in sex.

Yeah?