Official Thumped position on Lisbon (2 Viewers)

[ratmonkey]

why cant people just read up on this stuff if "i dont understand" is the stumbling block?

Because Kathy Sinnott says if you don't know, vote no.

Isn't this voting no the first time kind of equivalent to the way it used to be considered polite to refuse a cup of tea at least twice before accepting?

 

[Space]

Joe Higgins more like ...

Anyway, it's clear from this thread, that the decision on the way to vote should in no way be informed by the actual issues, but rather by an assessment of the personalities of those advocating a vote one way or the other.

Isn't that how politics always works in this country?

 

[ernesto]

Joe Higgins more like ...

Anyway, it's clear from this thread, that the decision on the way to vote should in no way be informed by the actual issues, but rather by an assessment of the personalities of those advocating a vote one way or the other.

sorry, you're right. i always confuse those two for some weird reason

 

[krossie]

One major problem with the Lisbon treaty is that it is

1. Pretty close to unreadable

(Being mostly a huge long list of amendments to existing treaties - many in apparent contradiction to each other even on a first reading)

Its full implications are unknown and possibly even formally intractable (in the actual mathematical sense of that word)

and


2. Its very likely that nobody will know what its actual implications are until after years of elaborate legal contestation

This may have been deliiberate too too!

For any one who wants to give it a go!
Libertas have the full treaty on their webpage:

http://www.libertas.eu/docs/The_Lisbon_Treaty.pdf

Bear in mind that awe inspiring 336 pages of gobbeldy gook is the official so called reader friendly version!!!

)

 

[Juno]

I seem to remember MDR giving a very good explanation of what the Lisbon Treaty involves on a thread here a few months ago. Might be worth looking that up again. I'd definitely vote yes - most of the half decent legislation that's been introduced here is as a direct result of EU directives (e.g. equality) and successive Irish governments have shown that they can't be expected to run a country adequately without the EU having to bail them out/ball them out. Although from what I can make out sadly the Lisbon Treaty won't lead to any reduction in the power of the Brians and their ilk to make a balls of running the place.

 

[Froog]

lads, when even the wikipedia page is difficult you know you're fucked.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisbon_treaty

 

[broken arm]

does everyone the other european directives that are currently impacting on the way we work/live?

does everyone read the national statutory instruments that impact on the way we work/live?

it's difficult to read because the shit is complicated.

 

[Froog]

 

[rettucs]

it's difficult to read because the shit is complicated.

yes, and most can't be arsed. Which is more damaging to the Yes campaign than to the No campaign. If people are in any doubt they'll vote No. Or just not vote.

Its not the way it should be. But its the way it is.

 

[broken arm]

yes, and most can't be arsed. Which is more damaging to the Yes campaign than to the No campaign. If people are in any doubt they'll vote No. Or just not vote.

Its not the way it should be. But its the way it is.

my point is..... if the complexity is what is making you vote you may aswell disregard all policy/laws/legislation.

 

[SONYMEGADRIVE]

but why can't you read articles about the treaty? find non-partisan sources you trust.

short of nicolas sarkozy and declan ganley calling around to your house to go argue through it point by point in front of you, i'm not sure how you hope to alleviate your own fears on this one

(edit - i know ganley isn't involved anymore)

 

[rettucs]

is there not some referendum commission though that is meant to do this? To provide just the facts?

I don't know who is/isn't a reliable source. Right now the biggest thing influencing how I'll vote on this is Cowen calling me a 'naysayer', in derogatory tones.

As Michael O'Leary says, one sure way for Lisbon to pass is for all political parties to say they're against it. And I kind of agree with that.

 

[Mormon Nailer]

I'd definitely vote yes - most of the half decent legislation that's been introduced here is as a direct result of EU directives (e.g. equality)

What strikes me is that all of this good legislation was designed and implemented by a community of equals.

I'm suspicious of the "Europe is unworkable and we need majority voting to fix it" argument.

Just look at what we have already achieved.

 

[broken arm]

is there not some referendum commission though that is meant to do this? To provide just the facts?

I don't know who is/isn't a reliable source. Right now the biggest thing influencing how I'll vote on this is Cowen calling me a 'naysayer', in derogatory tones.

that's fair enough. i don't think it's right but it's a natural response.

 

[shitepipe]

is there not some referendum commission though that is meant to do this? To provide just the facts?

they issued a leaflet to every house before the last referendum. people still didnt bother to read it.

 

[MDR]

I seem to remember MDR giving a very good explanation of what the Lisbon Treaty involves on a thread here a few months ago. Might be worth looking that up again.

I must look that up meself.

 

[rettucs]

they issued a leaflet to every house before the last referendum. people still didnt bother to read it.

they did?

so I probably can't expect another then, considering nothing has changed? From what I hear anyway

 

[shitepipe]

they did?

so I probably can't expect another then, considering nothing has changed? From what I hear anyway

i would imagine they are obliged to do the same again.

 

[krossie]

Broken Arm: my point is..... if the complexity is what is making you vote you may aswell disregard all policy/laws/legislation.

I'd could see that if it were just one law or one discrete group of them but its literally hundreds of amendments to a series of existing treaties - many in contradiction to each other - neither "yes" of "no" or, indeed, anyone can figure out the full implications - which I think was what Cowen hinted at in his having said he hadn't read the whole thing.

For an auld philosophy student like me self voting yes would surely a complete leap of faith in the classical Kirkegaardian sense

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leap_of_faith

(and kinda admirable in that particularly freaky sense...tho' I doubt thats how they'll be selling it!)

In a Europe that was truly democratic - simple yes/no binaries on a massive raft of complex legislative changes wouldn't arrise I guess.

On the other hand we're the only country who even get that

Provided we vote the right way of course

I guess we will eventually?

right?

kp

kp

 

[ratmonkey]

For an auld philosophy student like me self voting yes would surely a complete leap of faith in the classical Kirkegaardian sense

Not in the Indiana Jones sense?