Police officer dies in Italian soccer riot (2 Viewers)

[Shorty]

All I'm saying is that saying 'I have no sympathy' is tantamount to saying 'he/she got what was coming'. Nobody wants you to send bloody flowers. But don't pretend that a statement of a 'lack of sympathy' was one of neutrality because people aren't that dumb.

In your example of punks getting beaten by the police (that's just funny!) I'd say protestors or communities in resistance, I would have "sympathy" for them, but I don't complain about 'police brutality' or anything because it's part of being a wing of the state and maintaining a monopoly on violence. It's their job! I can understand that incredulity of people when this first becomes revealed to them, such as in Rossport, but it's at this point where one should start explaining why it it is the police do such things, etc. and what they can possibly do (in the mean time?). That's still a tricky answer, as you cna see in my not having concretely answered your questions so far. I think the start is the realisation of their role and then the coming together to decide things without the involvement of the police is the beginning of this.

Now, I'm not condoning lack of accountability. The point is that hiding behind someone else's theories is no more going to encourage accountability than is just sitting and going, "Oh, it was just a bad apple." The point is, you're saying that I 'don't touch on' what you want me to have said, rather than looking at what I did say. As I already pointed out, if you actually want to be politically productive, you might consider looking for common ground.

I know! It seems you have a better grasp on political organising than most on here (or maybe not ) But it's about finding those commonalities with those around you, where you work and live and doing it on a grassroots level while explaining your views, opinions and understandings and not within the system (man! hehe) that will prove most productive. Theory without action...Action without theory... etc. I try and do that where I can, when I can and with who I can, it's not always possible with the current low level of social struggle, but I try and it's a long process, something that I'm only now understanding as my views and opinions mature.. (I hope this doesn't come across as a platitude)

I'm not being wilfully ignorant, I'm acknowledging the reality that whether you like it or not, there is a police force, and what do you do with a corrupt police force on Wednesday and Thursday of this week, seeing as the anarchist utopia will be a while?

I wasn't saying that YOU were willfully ignorant but that it is endemic and maintained within society i.e. hegemony/manufacturing consent.

There you go with being all black and white again. Yes, relationships of unequal power are never going to lead to happy utopias, but the fact is, change can't happen over night. You seem to have a good idea of how the structure as it stands operates, and you know what it is that you want at the end, but what the rest of us want to know is what the practical steps are along the way. Seriously.

I don't have all the answers, it's something that needs to be worked out collectively. Maybe this might help

http://libcom.org/organise

No, but this is the third time you've said this without explaining what we do in the short to medium term.

Get involved in campigns that effect the everyday problems and desires that people face, build upon it and then connect with other campaigns and struggles with which you hold affinity all at the same time linking it in to a more and better understanding of the totality and society as a whole. (another sloganistic platitude perhaps). But if that's what you're looking for, eirecore is the last place to come, if you're looking for lip service to radical ideas and a bit of posturing you are in the right place though and should pull up a chair and put on the kettle.

I'm not currently in Dublin or Ireland so I'm not really sure what problems people are facing or which ones would be beneficial in furthering egalitarian ideas rather than just ending up reactionary issues and campaigns. I'd say housing and rent are possibly some major problems coming up in the next while(7-8 years that is) in Dublin.

 

[Shorty]

I don't normally find it necessary to explicitly define myself by my politics

Indeed, and this is 90% of the problem with political discussions on eirecore. Who will save us now? The big guy in the sky ... superman.

 

[sexypornolady]

These posts are all way too long.

 

[Shorty]

This is an incredibly cliched response and I'm almost ashamed to use it, but it's more a quote from someone on an anarchist messafge board

Private ownership of the means of production allows the exploitation of labour by capitalists through the extraction of surplus value over and above the labour that workers have to do to sustain themselves. Therefore although certain workers may well own their own means of production - like small tools or something - which don't allow them to exploit the labour of others - private ownership of means of production (inc. land) which _requires collective labour_ would allow that minority to exploit the labour of the majority. If they just use it themselves, they don't own it, or it doesn't matter what their perception of it is. The ownership is expressed through the subjective social relationships which follow from that ownership - either renting out or employing people, or demanding exchange with everyone else (although a degree of exchange between areas would happen in practice, even if not formally done on a barter/currency mechanism).



Since wage labour necessarily leads towards capitalist relationships, and it has to be assumed that in a post-revolutionary society no-one would want to be in a capitalist relationship (at least on the worker side), then it's in the interests of the workers and society in general to prevent emergent capitalists from developing, and bringing resources into communal ownership. Obviously the wannabe capitalists could then contribute labour and recieve according to need like anyone else. The only authority would be that of the majority of people removing their capacity for exploitation.

So unless your eyeliner is or would somehow allow you to extract surplus value or exploit the labour of others then it can't be understood as property but as a posession.

On the same note, I don't have any problem with medicine but the medicine industry is based on capitalist social relations and the profit motive, something best seen in their unwillingness to provide generic retro viral/AIDS inhibiting drugs to african countries due to it's undercutting of their profits. The cycle continues ... and their slippery slope arguments of withdrawing funding from further research are still premised on a capitalist discourse.

 

[Janer]

These posts are all way too long.

I thought that too, I just skip them....anyway you have Damon_Kind calling for you on Lifestyle.

 

[therealjohnny]

At this point I wish "eyeliner" wasn't the product that everyone is using as an example

 

[Janer]

ANOTEHR WHITEWASH

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30100-1251324,00.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6356931.stm

 

[sexypornolady]

I thought that too, I just skip them....anyway you have Damon_Kind calling for you on Lifestyle.

Thanks Janer - you're better than a text.

 

[Squiggle]

This thread:

View attachment 4326

 

[nooleen]

i suppose you think that's funny. someone died in that accident you know, i can't believe you're making light of it.

 

[1000smurfs]

On the same note, I don't have any problem with medicine but the medicine industry is based on capitalist social relations and the profit motive, something best seen in their unwillingness to provide generic retro viral/AIDS inhibiting drugs to african countries due to it's undercutting of their profits. The cycle continues ... and their slippery slope arguments of withdrawing funding from further research are still premised on a capitalist discourse.

I heard an interesting argument recently that the real problem
with capitalism is the enforcement of copyright and patent law.
if you did away with this you'd have a fairer system, still based on making a profit but being much more ethtical, open and globalised in the true sense.

 

[pete]

And conversely the argument goes that if you did away with copyrights and patents you'd remove the incentive to innovate.

 

[Malarky]

No but my point, which, fine, was flippant, is that not everyone wants to live inside a utopian dream, not because it might not be nice to have that sort of egalitarian world, but because what people really want is to know how they can make their lives better today and tomorrow, how they're going to feed and clothe themselves adn their families, and yes, there is some concern for the future, but they don't want to be told that there won't be justice in the world for a few more generations. They want small changes as well as big ones.

Some people have answered some stuff already, to be honest I'm quite lost now as to where to pick up. Anyway.
Small changes as well as big ones - damn right. Inherent in any anarchist belief, unless they're lifestylists or pure theoreticians, is the need to disseminate these ideas and make a difference in the here and now. This is where action and theory combine. At the risk of repeating a lot of what I said in the last debate when it surfaced, what's quite exciting now is the emergence of local social centres, run on anarchist principles and trying to make a real difference to the communities they're located in; providing anything from Claimants Unions, Refugee Forums, Home Education, Food Not Bombs, Credit Unions, creche facilities, free access to computers/internet, legal advice, squatters advice etc All anarchist theory being put into practise. The oft-repeated retort of anarchists living in a dream world where all they can think of is some far-away utopia simply isn't true. These things are going on now and have been for some time.

 

[Malarky]

And conversely the argument goes that if you did away with copyrights and patents you'd remove the incentive to innovate.

Humankind have been innovating a long time before the concept of patents came about.

 

[Lili Marlene]

Humankind have been innovating a long time before the concept of patents came about.

In a legal sense maybe but ownership is a pretty old idea.

 

[Malarky]

In a legal sense maybe but ownership is a pretty old idea.

It depends what you mean by pretty old. The possession rights to ideas and things that occur naturally is a relatively new concept.

 

[pete]

I didn't realise that millions was spent on r&d for the wheel.

 

[Lili Marlene]

It depends what you mean by pretty old. The possession rights to ideas and things that occur naturally is a relatively new concept.

go on

 

[Malarky]

I didn't realise that millions was spent on r&d for the wheel.

I'm confused. Have you not just argued my point?

 

[Malarky]

go on

Well, see for yourself under history of patents - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent